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shogun32

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40K units, maybe 60 but only because it's 1.5yr worth. The trend is not Ford's friend. The number of conquest will be minor - 5-8k units.
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Strokerswild

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Well, let me put it this way - if something catastrophic happens to my current S550, I'll be looking for another S550, a Mach 1 or GT500 garage queen. Or another '60s musclecar.

The S650 is no bueno for me in terms of styling. Zero interest.
 

dfanucci

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I do as well agree partially on EVs as a EV Mustang would’ve come too early. However, you’re saying that Dodge has to try very hard to make the EV Challenger compelling. Isn’t that what Ford should’ve done in order to make the S650 as compelling as possible? Isn’t that what we as customers want every company to do? To do their best so that we can get the best product?! The EV Challenger can very easily outshine the S650 in the years to come. Just imagine they’re fixing the linear acceleration, offer internal and external noise (no speakers but something similar their concept offers but more V8 like) and a top notch interior… The car drives almost like a gas guzzler, sounds like one and offers mind blowing acceleration with its 1000+ hp… If they can pull off something like that EV muscle cars will be a thing and Dodge is already very close to finalizing such a product. They have to because no one is interested in just another EV that looks like a muscle car but drives like any other EV.
I think folks are holding on to the "it's the only true pony car left" death grip a little too tight. Both Chevy and Dodge may be quiet in the performance market for a year or two, but when they both get up to the plate again, they are going to knock the cover off the ball. The 650 has a two -- maybe three -- year leg life and I'd say that's about it. Chevy and Dodge bringing any sort of performance EV to the market within 2 years is going trash an ICE Mustang both in performance and sales.

The real question is, has Ford got an equivalent EV Mustang in the waiting room...
 

Zcarmenb28

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I think it's going to underwhelm compared to the S550's initial sales figures; Ford literally took the same failed strategy with the S650 that Chevy did with the current vs last gen Camaro and I think people will largely have the same reaction...too similar visually, too expensive overall to justify. I feel like this one is going to be a bit of a fish out of water compared to some of the electrified/hybrid offerings from Dodge and potentially Chevy as well SHOULD those vehicles become media darlings and a hit with the public. Ford likely whiffed on their strategy and will be a bit late to the party so to speak. We'll see, but this may be a bit interesting to see how this all goes down and if Ford can somehow make Chevy's failed strategy work.
Ford didn't take the same strategy as GM. The 6th gen Camaro was an entirely new car: new chassis, new gen engine, new everything. Yes, it looked very similar to the 5th gen Camaros, which is what I think you're homing in on; however, it was entirely updated - nothing was shared between the 5th and 6th generations (except for the rear bumper SS badge I think I once read). And its looks probably isn't what hurt it in the sales department (hint: somewhat compromised visibility and in some opinions to a lesser degree, ergonomics). The S650 is just a refreshed S550 with new sheetmetal and dashboard. The underpinnings are all the same minus the dual TB intake on the GT engine and some updates to the Ecoboost engine. This "new generation" is more akin to a major refresh.
 

shogun32

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This "new generation" is more akin to a major refresh.
I rank dash and sheetmetal changes as merely a 'modest' refresh. Or alternatively the pejorative "bold new graphics" as popularized by the 2-wheel press. The dual-intake on the 5.0 hardly rises to "interesting" nor "significant" while the extra HP is a total snooze/nothing-burger.

I see basically nobody trading in a S550 for S650 unless their car is already 7 years old.
 
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Q6543

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It will crush sales…HOME RUN #s.

It is not for s550 owners, it’s for foxbody,SN95, new edge, S197 owners who want the “coyote in its final form”

Next up will be electric mustang GT-E
 

OppoLock

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It literally always was the original pony car ;)

But aside from that I do agree with some of your arguments. The S650 will sell and most buyers aren’t enthusiasts like us. Most buyers will appreciate the screens. That being said I think most would still prefer integrated screens if they had a choice. The S650 will sell more units than the current one for sure but will they be that much higher as in 2014? Probably not.
Offering a physical set of dash instruments and gauge clusters as an alternative to an interior that's been developed entirely around a touch interface would be nightmarishly expensive, I would imagine. Have you ever seen someone else do that in the industry? That probably gives you a clear answer.

I do as well agree partially on EVs as a EV Mustang would’ve come too early. However, you’re saying that Dodge has to try very hard to make the EV Challenger compelling. Isn’t that what Ford should’ve done in order to make the S650 as compelling as possible? Isn’t that what we as customers want every company to do? To do their best so that we can get the best product?! The EV Challenger can very easily outshine the S650 in the years to come. Just imagine they’re fixing the linear acceleration, offer internal and external noise (no speakers but something similar their concept offers but more V8 like) and a top notch interior… The car drives almost like a gas guzzler, sounds like one and offers mind blowing acceleration with its 1000+ hp… If they can pull off something like that EV muscle cars will be a thing and Dodge is already very close to finalizing such a product. They have to because no one is interested in just another EV that looks like a muscle car but drives like any other EV.
The moment the Charger/Challenger come out as EVs, they'll be competitors by name only. A Kia EV6 GT will be a closer competitor in size, concept, and experience. I'm slightly confused; don't you, as an enthusiast, want to keep having good ICE options? The idea of losing the V8 and stick to an EV sounds dreadful to me, especially with the terrible charging network infrastructure we have in the US.

The push to EV is a response to regulations; it's not doing enthusiasts any favors, although their performance probably helps the people that care about the idea of beating strangers at the next red light and bragging on forums.

And yes, gimmicks are going to be the separator for the indefinite short-term EV future. Fake gear shifts with artificial power delivery interruptions, fake induction noises and/or reactive theatrical soundtracks, fake exhaust music festivals--those will be the identity-makers for EVs.

Contrast that to ICE cars; a standard ICE plant delivers characteristics that stem from function, like agricultural sounds, low-end power delivery without incentive to rev, and gearboxes designed to maximize low-RPM activity. A performance-oriented ICE plant features sounds that are a byproduct of aggressive air/fuel/combustion choices, have power deliveries incentivizing use of the full RPM band, and gearboxes that deliver a different sensory experience (and at least traditionally speaking, most of that was a simple correlation of the powertrain, but modern cars add gimmicks like active sound enhancement and artificial gearshift harshness to maximize sensations).

Now to your point, someone will nail the right set of gimmicks, but they shouldn't be mimicking ICE experiences and should be focused on looking forward. As wacky-bullshitty as it is, BMW's use of Hans Zimmer to create eerie, spacecraft-like sounds in response to acceleration is exactly what OEMs should be thinking about.

Ford on the other hand knew that they would most likely be the only company offering something like a traditional ‘muscle car’. Why going the extra mile when there is no need to? The S650 will sell somewhat OK-ish, generate enough profit to keep the name relevant but that’s about it.
They're currently the only ones willing to take the risk of developing, testing, certifying, and marketing another ICE platform in a climate that's all but up in the air.

I think that if the S650 would’ve offered something truly new to the Mustang formula that that would boost sales by a lot. Why not offer some of Ford crates engines as a standard option… Pair the increased displacement with AWD on off you go… Looks are subjective – numbers aren’t.
Any additional powertrain options would introduce variants that would have to be tested, certified, and made production-feasible. They would have to factor in cost-complexity, sales dilution, and ultimately profitability, the former of which would be incomprehensible for us to understand. On top of that, Ford's crate engine warranties are good for 2/24k versus the 5/60k on their factory powertrains.

At the end of the day, it's really simple.

The S650 is a logical product given all current factors in the industry. If it busts, Ford will either react to feedback and make adjustments or they'll kill off the platform and go Jetsons on us.

I think folks are holding on to the "it's the only true pony car left" death grip a little too tight. Both Chevy and Dodge may be quiet in the performance market for a year or two, but when they both get up to the plate again, they are going to knock the cover off the ball. The 650 has a two -- maybe three -- year leg life and I'd say that's about it. Chevy and Dodge bringing any sort of performance EV to the market within 2 years is going trash an ICE Mustang both in performance and sales.

The real question is, has Ford got an equivalent EV Mustang in the waiting room...
The longer Chevy and Dodge choose to wait, the less likely a purpose-built ICE platform will come from them. If anything, they'll be hybrids if they come to market in the next few years simply because looming pure-ICE bans aren't that far off in California and the EU. It will literally be illegal to sell an ICE-only car in those markets in a little over 10 years unless something changes, and you know that a business won't waste money developing something they cannot sell.

And if they come out with EV products, they will only be competing in spirit. The same way a Tesla Model 3 competes "in spirit" with an M3.

Ford didn't take the same strategy as GM. The 6th gen Camaro was an entirely new car: new chassis, new gen engine, new everything. Yes, it looked very similar to the 5th gen Camaros, which is what I think you're homing in on; however, it was entirely updated - nothing was shared between the 5th and 6th generations (except for the rear bumper SS badge I think I once read). And its looks probably isn't what hurt it in the sales department (hint: somewhat compromised visibility and in some opinions to a lesser degree, ergonomics). The S650 is just a refreshed S550 with new sheetmetal and dashboard. The underpinnings are all the same minus the dual TB intake on the GT engine and some updates to the Ecoboost engine. This "new generation" is more akin to a major refresh.
I rank dash and sheetmetal changes as merely a 'modest' refresh. Or alternatively the pejorative "bold new graphics" as popularized by the 2-wheel press. The dual-intake on the 5.0 hardly rises to "interesting" nor "significant" while the extra HP is a total snooze/nothing-burger.

I see basically nobody trading in a S550 for S650 unless their car is already 7 years old.
Are we forgetting that this is totally normal for Ford

Foxbody 79-86 -> Fox Body 87-93
SN-95 94-98 -> New Edge 99-04
S197 05-09 -> S197 II 10-14
S550 15-23 -> S650 24+

I don't think anyone's being fooled here and this isn't some big secret. Marketing teams are gonna market
 
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Marty1000

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Given the supply chain issue Ford and other automakers will focus production on high profit models such as F150 family and the EV space. The numbers for sports car sales are falling for all the brands, but my hope is that Ford will increase DH production as it has higher profit margins and there are many wealthy buyers ready to purchase. Take a look at 2021 year sales. I will guess less the 65K Pony units for USA market in 2023.

S650 Mustang How well do you think the S650 will sell? 2021_sales


S650 Mustang How well do you think the S650 will sell? Wealth_gap_data
 

AlloyPony

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I have a '13 GT Premium right now. I still think it's the best body style ever. But let's be honest. Ford and GM have to be frustrated. Dodge has used the same body for 15 years and still outsells both of them. Why? Because Dodge stuck to the heritage. Classic looking body with usable back seats and lots of big V8 power to pick from. Meanwhile Ford and GM went with a European look and very few engine options. So Dodge has whipped them. And this is a horrible year to release the S650 because right now everyone in this market is trying to scoop up a new Dodge while they still can. If you watch dealer listings it's shocking how fast Scat Packs are selling. I think Ford is going to have a very rough year. Their constant appearances in the news lately over quality control issues isn't helping either. 😑
 

DeluxeStang

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I think it's going to underwhelm compared to the S550's initial sales figures; Ford literally took the same failed strategy with the S650 that Chevy did with the current vs last gen Camaro and I think people will largely have the same reaction...too similar visually, too expensive overall to justify. I feel like this one is going to be a bit of a fish out of water compared to some of the electrified/hybrid offerings from Dodge and potentially Chevy as well SHOULD those vehicles become media darlings and a hit with the public. Ford likely whiffed on their strategy and will be a bit late to the party so to speak. We'll see, but this may be a bit interesting to see how this all goes down and if Ford can somehow make Chevy's failed strategy work.
The 6th gen Camaro was identical to the 5th gen visually from most angles. It was virtually impossible to tell the cars apart from the rear and side. The s650 might have the overall profile similar to the s550. But it's details make it very easy to tell the cars apart imo.
 

Grabber_GT

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I think folks are holding on to the "it's the only true pony car left" death grip a little too tight. Both Chevy and Dodge may be quiet in the performance market for a year or two, but when they both get up to the plate again, they are going to knock the cover off the ball. The 650 has a two -- maybe three -- year leg life and I'd say that's about it. Chevy and Dodge bringing any sort of performance EV to the market within 2 years is going trash an ICE Mustang both in performance and sales.

The real question is, has Ford got an equivalent EV Mustang in the waiting room...
I have ZERO desire for an EV. I don't have one friend (car guy or not) who wants one either...they have way too many downsides.

Just look at the backlash Dodge is getting over the Charger EV. They are already saying it will most likely now be available with two ICE engines as well.
 

bnightstar

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I rank dash and sheetmetal changes as merely a 'modest' refresh. Or alternatively the pejorative "bold new graphics" as popularized by the 2-wheel press. The dual-intake on the 5.0 hardly rises to "interesting" nor "significant" while the extra HP is a total snooze/nothing-burger.

I see basically nobody trading in a S550 for S650 unless their car is already 7 years old.
I probably will trade my S550 for a DH just waiting on availability in Europe and how the EU spec will look like.
 

Bikeman315

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Hopefully well enough for Ford to keep producing it for the entire planned run. Do not know what that number is and don’t really care. Just so long is there is an ICE Mustang around when it comes time to let my 19’ GT/CS go.
 

dfanucci

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I have ZERO desire for an EV. I don't have one friend (car guy or not) who wants one either...they have way too many downsides.

Just look at the backlash Dodge is getting over the Charger EV. They are already saying it will most likely now be available with two ICE engines as well.
Backlash? Everything I've read shows massive interest and support of it.

EV's are the future whether we like it or not. An EV Charger with two ICE engines is an absolute waste of resources and I would expect any ICE engine to not be of the performance variety. It makes no sense $$ wise. EV's performance will crush any and all ICE engine put out by any manufacturer. There are too many rules in place to choke ICE motors.
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