S650 steering and handling is night and day difference compared to S550 Mustang says Chief Engineer Ed Krenz

[OppoLock]

i hope that while Ford is putting in a quicker steering ratio, they give the wheels more room to actually turn, i really dont like being restricted to 3-lane highways if i need to do a U-turn

dude yes, what is with the greyhound-bus-level turning circle on these things

my buddy’s FoST was like that too

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[9secondko]

If you don't like better handling why do you care whether the base Mustang handles better than a Camaro? I do agree with you that it would be nice to get better handling for your money on the base Mustang, but probably if Ford put better equipment on the car they would charge more. So unless Ford just happens to build exactly what you want, you will probably end up needing to swap suspension parts anyway.

I can post a "conparison" if you would like.

what the heck are you inhaling when you post drivel like this? Seriously.

1) you incorrectly stated that I preferred the Camaro.

2) now you incorrectly infer that I “don’t like” handling when my whole point was that the mustang should handle amazingly well in every model.

you’re usually a sensible guy, but I think you either misread what I wrote or you had a long day.

but we agree it would be great if the mustang handled better.

as far as pricing, we both know it wouldn’t cost Ford hardly any more to putbetter suspension in its cars due to economy of scale. It’s a boardroom decision. Thst said, the Mustang has to fight harder than ever and do more than ever to not only continue to be an actual performance car in an era where soccer mom SUVsbeat out some performance cars, but to thrive and be seen as special beyond the horse sticker.

it’s a whole new gernation (even though it isn’t) and should be clearly superior to the previous and competition.

I think we agree(?) but your inferences are really throwing a curveball here.

 

[Hack]

what the heck are you inhaling when you post drivel like this? Seriously.

1) you incorrectly stated that I preferred the Camaro.

2) now you incorrectly infer that I “don’t like” handling when my whole point was that the mustang should handle amazingly well in every model.

you’re usually a sensible guy, but I think you either misread what I wrote or you had a long day.

but we agree it would be great if the mustang handled better.

as far as pricing, we both know it wouldn’t cost Ford hardly any more to putbetter suspension in its cars due to economy of scale. It’s a boardroom decision. Thst said, the Mustang has to fight harder than ever and do more than ever to not only continue to be an actual performance car in an era where soccer mom SUVsbeat out some performance cars, but to thrive and be seen as special beyond the horse sticker.

it’s a whole new gernation (even though it isn’t) and should be clearly superior to the previous and competition.

I think we agree(?) but your inferences are really throwing a curveball here.

You used the Camaro as a measuring stick for handling and said the Mustang had to beat it. Duh.

If you hated the Camaro, there is no reason to want the Mustang to beat it. You already think the Mustang is better. If you think the Mustang needs to improve to match up with Camaro, you like Camaro. Or you at a very minimum think some aspects (HANDLING is a performance aspect of the car in case this is too vague) of the Camaro are better (AKA preferred BY YOU because you think it's better) over those of the Mustang. It's not difficult to follow.

The other option is you want better handling on the Mustang, don't really care about Camaro, but just used Camaro name for no reason. Not sure why you would do that. Seems a little nonsensical. GM isn't even going to keep making the Camaro AFAIK, so there's really no reason for Ford to try to compete with something that doesn't even exist.

 

[9secondko]

You used the Camaro as a measuring stick for handling and said the Mustang had to beat it. Duh.

If you hated the Camaro, there is no reason to want the Mustang to beat it. You already think the Mustang is better. If you think the Mustang needs to improve to match up with Camaro, you like Camaro. Or you at a very minimum think some aspects (HANDLING is a performance aspect of the car in case this is too vague) of the Camaro are better (AKA preferred BY YOU because you think it's better) over those of the Mustang. It's not difficult to follow.

The other option is you want better handling on the Mustang, don't really care about Camaro, but just used Camaro name for no reason. Not sure why you would do that. Seems a little nonsensical. GM isn't even going to keep making the Camaro AFAIK, so there's really no reason for Ford to try to compete with something that doesn't even exist.

yeah… no. Some of us aren’t little children who pretend something is better than it is just because we like it.
The s550 was good, but it lacked in handling compared to the Camaro.

that’s just being honest. Some people are capable of that.

there are various points in history where the Camaro was objectively the better car at various things. The 93-02 car for example,obliterated the mustang much to my chagrin. As a kid, I was horrified to watch the Camaro transform into a rocket while the mustang actual got SLOWER and turned into a jellybean in 94. The mustang whooped on the Camaro left and right from 2011-2014. But with the s550, the mustang got heavier and bigger. The Camaro got smaller and lighter and handled better model for model. That’s just history. All the reason more why the Mustang (my preferred car it apparently needs to be stated) must do better.

I like the mustang. That’s why I want it to end the discussion. No debate. Just clear superiority. It would just be so wrong to have the brand new mustang either get beat by, match, or just barely exceed the Camaro standard. It should terminate it.

bruh. Lay off whatever it is you’re ingesting. It’s doing undesirable things to your faculties.

 

[oneheadlite]

...does this guy have any connection with the one that said he wanted the
s650 to be a poster car???

Or was that 'poser car'...............

 

[Bobby57]

Having been a BMW i440 and M4 guy for many years before picking up my retirement 2016 Mustang GT convertible, which I have heavily modified, one of my disappointments was the lack of an electronic differential, which apparently will also not be part of the design of the S650.

For non drag racing applications, I know of no differential technology that delivers torque to the drive wheels as appropriately and efficiently as the hydro-electronic ones, such as BMW's Active M Differential.

It is obvious to me that Ford is leaving out various pricey technologies and luxurious appointments to price the car at an entry point of around $30K. From a marketing perspective this is good sense.

My pipe dream is that Ford would establish a marque performance division, such as BMW "M" or Mercedes "AMG", to create a better base platform that does not leave out what I consider to be some essential technologies such as an electronic differential or a decent transmission.

Having said all that, I love my S550 mustang Also, in a way, I am happy that the S650 does not represent a radical departure from my Mustang generation, as it helps to maintain the value of my car?

 

[Schwerin]

Having been a BMW i440 and M4 guy for many years before picking up my retirement 2016 Mustang GT convertible, which I have heavily modified, one of my disappointments was the lack of an electronic differential, which apparently will also not be part of the design of the S650.

For non drag racing applications, I know of no differential technology that delivers torque to the drive wheels as appropriately and efficiently as the hydro-electronic ones, such as BMW's Active M Differential.

It is obvious to me that Ford is leaving out various pricey technologies and luxurious appointments to price the car at an entry point of around $30K. From a marketing perspective this is good sense.

My pipe dream is that Ford would establish a marque performance division, such as BMW "M" or Mercedes "AMG", to create a better base platform that does not leave out what I consider to be some essential technologies such as an electronic differential or a decent transmission.

Having said all that, I love my S550 mustang Also, in a way, I am happy that the S650 does not represent a radical departure from my Mustang generation, as it helps to maintain the value of my car?

SVT kind of operated that way. Added IRS and a 6th gear and such to the cobra while the GT didn't have those. At the end of the day the mustang was a blue collar sports car. AMG and M have always been c-level purchasers when it comes to bank accounts.

Though today the average American can't properly afford a Honda Civic and be financially sound. And that was even pre COVID, it's worse now

 

[Garfy]

This could be a biggy for me. After coming out of a BMW E92 M3 that is something I sorely miss. Yes the current S550 handles very well, particularly when modded. Its just that the steering never felt so precise. I never got to drive a GT350 or a GT500 so I can only go on what I know, which is my Ford Performance Track kit equipped Mustang.

One problem I see is that you eliminate DIYers from replacing the rear brake pads because with electronic parking brake, you can't replace the pads without putting the caliper into the mode to retract the pistons (had this experience with Euro cars) which means you need a scan tool that has these bi-directional controls to do so. Secondly, I don't think you can activate the parking brake if the vehicle is moving, which means we no longer have the use of the parking brake as an "emergency brake" should something go wrong with the hydraulic brake system. Even if it could be activated with the vehicle moving, how do you modulate how much brake to apply? Electronic parking brakes are either on or off so I guess it'll make "drifting" a little more challenging.

 

[Spart]

The breaking system; we migrated to electronic brake boost … so you can tune the brake pedal response,

I was on board with basically everything S650 until this.

I specifically do not use the "track", "race", or "sport" modes on my car because they fool with the throttle response making it unpredictable, which in turn fools with my ability to rev match and put down the exact amount of power that I want mid-corner. Luckily the GT350 lets you easily adjust the TC, steering feel, damping, and exhaust individually instead of tying those things to the mode selection.

Apply that same BS to the brake pedal and that's a straight-up deal breaker for me, that's a huge safety issue on-track. The brakes need to be predictable or they're going to put you in the wall. What the hell are they even thinking with this garbage?

 

[because_murica]

I was on board with basically everything S650 until this.

I specifically do not use the "track", "race", or "sport" modes on my car because they fool with the throttle response making it unpredictable, which in turn fools with my ability to rev match and put down the exact amount of power that I want mid-corner. Luckily the GT350 lets you easily adjust the TC, steering feel, damping, and exhaust individually instead of tying those things to the mode selection.

Apply that same BS to the brake pedal and that's a straight-up deal breaker for me, that's a huge safety issue on-track. The brakes need to be predictable or they're going to put you in the wall. What the hell are they even thinking with this garbage?

I don't think Krenz necessarily meant that the brake pedal feel would change with any given mode. Rather, taking his words in the most literal of ways, I think he meant that moving to an electronic boost system simply allowed them to tune pedal feedback - which again doesn't necessarily imply brake pedal feel would change with X modes. If Ford knows how to do anything, it's vehicle dynamics on track, something they proved starting with the GT350. I think they're well aware they shouldn't alter brake pedal feel between modes.

 

[9secondko]

I was on board with basically everything S650 until this.

I specifically do not use the "track", "race", or "sport" modes on my car because they fool with the throttle response making it unpredictable, which in turn fools with my ability to rev match and put down the exact amount of power that I want mid-corner. Luckily the GT350 lets you easily adjust the TC, steering feel, damping, and exhaust individually instead of tying those things to the mode selection.

Apply that same BS to the brake pedal and that's a straight-up deal breaker for me, that's a huge safety issue on-track. The brakes need to be predictable or they're going to put you in the wall. What the hell are they even thinking with this garbage?

would be great to have a “custom” drive mode where the owner of the car can set various parameters.

 

[Spart]

would be great to have a “custom” drive mode where the owner of the car can set various parameters.

Let's push that further: all of the drive modes should be customizable.

I'd like to semi-permanently (indefinitely?) disable the varying steering feel and throttle mapping on every single one of them.

There's no reason this can't be done, it would be a very simple thing to do in the firmware.

 

[Ace]

I was on board with basically everything S650 until this.

I specifically do not use the "track", "race", or "sport" modes on my car because they fool with the throttle response making it unpredictable, which in turn fools with my ability to rev match and put down the exact amount of power that I want mid-corner. Luckily the GT350 lets you easily adjust the TC, steering feel, damping, and exhaust individually instead of tying those things to the mode selection.

Apply that same BS to the brake pedal and that's a straight-up deal breaker for me, that's a huge safety issue on-track. The brakes need to be predictable or they're going to put you in the wall. What the hell are they even thinking with this garbage?

I am on the opposite side of this. I just want a very linear throttle and brake curve, since that's how you can apply throttle and brake the best. But most people are just too dumb to drive and would easily throw away their powerful car if you had that as the standard. So the carmakers add softer touring curves so regular people can apply the power curve easier.

With the by wire technologies you finally have both, the normal people can drive the car without any understanding how to put power down and for people who really want to apply the performance clean you can have the linear curves. And you always have the custom mode for your own prefered setup.

 

[young at heart]

I guess I must be among the unwashed masses. I just react instinctively to whatever the car throws at me without overthinking things. If it’s quirky, weird or off-putting I’ll either fix it or get rid of the car.

Granted I don’t track my cars but if I had to think about every little thing like you guys are talking about I’d be totally frozen and unable to drive 10 feet.

 

[Spart]

Granted I don’t track my cars but if I had to think about every little thing like you guys are talking about I’d be totally frozen and unable to drive 10 feet.

I think you're missing the point - a bit. But also hitting the nail on the head without even realizing it.

If you're driving flat-out on a track, the car in any given corner is right on the edge of having an off. Not everyone drives this hard. I don't drive that hard all the time, but I try to get there. There are tracks local to me where I feel comfortable pushing that hard (RPM and Heartland Park) and one where I definitely don't (OIR.)

On any given braking zone, you're braking at the last possible moment and slowing down just in time to take the fastest line through the corner (hitting the outside, then inside, then outside of the track again) at a speed that is all the tires will give you.

There's a lot of art to that, and if the car is doing unpredictable things, you just won't be able to push it as hard as a predictable car.

"if I had to think about every little thing like you guys are talking about I’d be totally frozen and unable to drive 10 feet." - this is exactly the problem. If the brakes are predictable, you don't have to think about them. If the throttle is predictable, you don't have to think about it. If the steering is predictable, you don't have to think about it.

This is not to say that any car is perfectly predictable, they're not. The tires heat up and change grip levels. The brakes heat up and lose effectiveness. The engine can get heat soaked and pull timing and or have histrionics with boost.

But a sorted track car seeks to eliminate or minimize the unpredictable, not add to it.

I just can't imagine that an electronic brake pedal with different maps is going to do anything for the predictability of the car's track manners.

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