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theruleslawyer

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Falc'man

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/I think I'm just getting too old.

For 95% of enthusiasts (I'm not including all people on the road, just the enthusiasts) we use 1 or 2 tenths of the vehicle's peak power - 95% of the time.

So, if I'm (forced to be) dawdling around at such a slow pace I better be getting some sort of enjoyment for the money I'm laying down. I also need to be involved with controlling this vehicle. It needs to feel like an extension of me. (The direction and vision of one certain prominent manufacturer is to remove that aspect, which begs the question: has Elon heard of public transport?)

If we compare the shove in the back from a manual V8 (heck even a decent 6 or 4 will do) from every gear change, coupled with the sweet and rhythmic sound, if we compare that to the seamless and linear nature of a mobile appliance, we can easily see and understand why some mention the word "soul". Do I give a . about bragging rights and outright speed? Yes, when I was a kid that argued all the time, I guess I did.

Ok, the Tesla got to 60 in 2 seconds. That's absurd, downright uncomfortable, and simply not enjoyable for most people. But even if it was a enjoyable, his two seconds is up. Then what?

In the realm of a car enthusiast the journey is far greater than the destination.

So, it could take someone else 8 or 9 seconds to casually row through several gears in a manual V8 to get to 60mph, or 50mph. The noise, and the shove in the back with every gear change is all we need. Someone mentioned Ford would get away with 400hp since there won't be any competition. I think even 300hp is sufficient.
 

Shelbeast

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Slight tangent, but I'm not opposed to an EV for a daily. They may very well become easier and cheaper to maintain than ICE cars overtime as the tech improves.
I have my doubts. The price to charge will only go crazy. And a Mach-E is 60K
 

theruleslawyer

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I have my doubts. The price to charge will only go crazy. And a Mach-E is 60K
Most analysts expect that EVs will be cheaper to produce by the end of the decade at least. 25-26 is about price parity, but the pandemic may end up pushing some of that back. Either way, they have a lot less parts. Its mostly about scaling battery capacity. They also should be more reliable and have less maintenance costs. Charging costs will be interesting. Most EV charging will happen at home, overnight. That’s when the cheapest power is. It is significantly cheaper than gas at home now.

Charing at stations will be interesting. Charing takes longer than filling up with gas. Putting in new fast chargers also isn’t cheap. Right now DCFC can be as much as gas some places. DCFC also are typically used during the day when power rates are higher and dealing with huge surges is an issue for the grid. I’d expect there to be a lot less charging stations than gas stations overall. They also will probably focus more on the lounge/restaurant model as people will be there longer. Profits are higher in the store than the pump now anyways. It’ll be interesting to see how the business model evolves. Will stations effectively end up charging at cost to get you to spend half an hour at their store where you buy some high margin snacks? How will it be handled around areas with a lot of apartments?
 

Shelbeast

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Most analysts expect that EVs will be cheaper to produce by the end of the decade at least. 25-26 is about price parity, but the pandemic may end up pushing some of that back. Either way, they have a lot less parts. Its mostly about scaling battery capacity. They also should be more reliable and have less maintenance costs. Charging costs will be interesting. Most EV charging will happen at home, overnight. That’s when the cheapest power is. It is significantly cheaper than gas at home now.

Charing at stations will be interesting. Charing takes longer than filling up with gas. Putting in new fast chargers also isn’t cheap. Right now DCFC can be as much as gas some places. DCFC also are typically used during the day when power rates are higher and dealing with huge surges is an issue for the grid. I’d expect there to be a lot less charging stations than gas stations overall. They also will probably focus more on the lounge/restaurant model as people will be there longer. Profits are higher in the store than the pump now anyways. It’ll be interesting to see how the business model evolves. Will stations effectively end up charging at cost to get you to spend half an hour at their store where you buy some high margin snacks? How will it be handled around areas with a lot of apartments?
Good Points. I agree. I read that an Electric charger costs 30K vs. 10K for a pump. So, cost is a lot.
I do like the new EV6 that fast charges from 20-80 in less than 20 minutes.
People need things to do and faster charge....not to mention east to west is not good yet. I do like how charging stations are at malls near me. You can grab food and walk.

My idea is to create drones that fly to your car, attach, and recharge while you drive
 


Stonehauler

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Interesting story on Foxnews about a hydrogen burning 5.0 liter V-8 Yamaha is developing. It's supposed to have 450hp/400 ft-lb of torque and be completely carbon neutral.
News article here

could be an interesting development and alternative that keeps in the ICE alive, but of course, it brings up the whole cryogenic storage issue, hydrogen fire issue, etc.
 

Friend of Dorothy

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There’s no such thing as a carbon neutral vehicle. Quite a lot of power is required to produce hydrogen, so all the vehicle does is transfer the emissions from the actual vehicle to the power station that fuels hydrogen production.

The same goes for electric vehicles, and more carbon is emitted producing EVs than ICE powered cars. Early reports indicated that it takes up to 100,000 miles to offset the extra omissions required to produce an EV.

Maybe one day economies will be fuelled on 100% renewable energy, 100% of the time, but that is still a long way off, if achievable at all.
 

Stonehauler

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There’s no such thing as a carbon neutral vehicle. Quite a lot of power is required to produce hydrogen, so all the vehicle does is transfer the emissions from the actual vehicle to the power station that fuels hydrogen production.

The same goes for electric vehicles, and more carbon is emitted producing EVs than ICE powered cars. Early reports indicated that it takes up to 100,000 miles to offset the extra omissions required to produce an EV.

Maybe one day economies will be fuelled on 100% renewable energy, 100% of the time, but that is still a long way off, if achievable at all.
I am aware of this, and the article actually speaks to this issue and notes that they are working on ways to improve it.

I will note that no energy source is 100 percent clean. All of them create a disturbance in the environment, no matter if it's mining, refining, generating power at a power plant, wind farm, etc. They ALL have impacts, some to a greater or lesser degree, but even small increments can lead to overall improvement.
 

IronG

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I think it is great that Ford will keep the Mustang having an ICE option, hopefully one of the options will be a V8....for the next 10 years at least. I might be ok with a turbo V6, but I draw the line there. Anything below a V6 forced induction is a no go for me and would rather just keep whatever Mustang I have once they go pure EV.

Like others have stated, for a pure daily driver for work an EV would be fine, but for a fun car, to me nothing beats the real sound and feel of an ICE car. Depending on the vehicle, that could be a V8, V6 or 4. I prefer a manual, but on some cars in some use cases, an auto especially dual clutch type works too.

At the moment at least I have Zero desire to purchase an EV for anything other than my wife's car (although she is not very enthused by them either) as hers is more the family DD and really does not require spirited fun. We have several other fun cars we use for that. Also just to add, I know no one personally that really wants self-driving to be thing unless it comes 100% complete, meaning no steering wheel in the car and impervious to hacking. Until that day, self-driving is a pipe dream coveted by a small minority of car "enthusiasts".
 

llinthicum1

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I'm curious if rising gas prices will hasten the migration to EVs or will it lead to more drilling, fracking, etc. I may be wrong, but if consumers can't fill their gas tanks, they're going to call for lower gas prices instead of calling for more EVs.
 

Bikeman315

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I'm curious if rising gas prices will hasten the migration to EVs or will it lead to more drilling, fracking, etc. I may be wrong, but if consumers can't fill their gas tanks, they're going to call for lower gas prices instead of calling for more EVs.
They can call for whatever they want, it’s not going to happen. We will get what the industry wants to sell us. The entire movement to find alternative fuels for oil had little to do with the environment. It was all about the eventual reduction of easily found and extractable oil supplies.

Now we haven’t run out of oil yet but it is inevitable. Less availability and higher costs for extraction will be the death of gasoline powered vehicles. We have a long way to go but it eventually will happen.
 

Hack

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They can call for whatever they want, it’s not going to happen. We will get what the industry wants to sell us. The entire movement to find alternative fuels for oil had little to do with the environment. It was all about the eventual reduction of easily found and extractable oil supplies.

Now we haven’t run out of oil yet but it is inevitable. Less availability and higher costs for extraction will be the death of gasoline powered vehicles. We have a long way to go but it eventually will happen.
When oil was originally discovered, scientists believed there was less than 100 year supply. The last I read about it the supply of currently known sources of oil is over 300 years. Scientific discovery of new sources of oil has surpassed usage so far.

FYI.
 

Ruin

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I thought this thread might enjoy this recent report from a whole bunch of nerds at Yale.

Basically their findings turn the idea that moving to EVs just changes where carbon emissions come from rather than reducing them and flips it on its head.

I long held the same belief, but their research shows that at every single level of production EVs are by far and a way better for the environment than FFs. Pretty cool stuff!

https://environment.yale.edu/news/a...ide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional
Sponsored

 
 




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