Jim Farley Teases Mustang GT3 Roaring at Sebring - "Should We Make a Road Version?"

[RocketGuy3]

The Coyote 5.0 came out in 2011. 12 years is a good long time to keep the same engine with only smaller tweaks. It's not like Ford just came out with a new, bigger engine 3 or 4 years ago. It's been a long long time.

If you want an efficient and clean car, the Mustang should not be for you. Why do you think an enthusiast would want that? It seems crazy to even say it. If you want a Corolla or a Prius, you are welcome to it. Sounds like torture to me.

Few things here:

1. You say "small tweaks", but those tweaks have added up significantly over time. Ford has added the better part of 100 hp in that time. Who cares if it's the same engine?
2. I wasn't bringing up "clean and efficient" as something you or maybe even the general Mustang market is looking for, but certain emissions and efficiency standards have to be met for any high volume production car today regardless of what the buyer wants.
3. Again, most importantly, consider the competition. How many performance vehicles remaining on the market are giving you the displacement and power gains you want every generation? I already showed you that Porsche is not really doing what you seem to be asking for, and will be doing even less going forward. Meanwhile many other car makes and models are WAY behind the Mustang in terms of generational improvements. Many of them have seen the most marginal power tweaks over the better part of two decades, and some just don't even exist anymore. If you don't like what Ford is doing, what are your other options?

Right. If power is my goal, I can do it with my current vehicle which also has a Coyote in it. And an ECU that's easy to tune. No reason to spoil the warranty on a brand new vehicle by modifying it right away or worry whether it will be possible/legal.

I think Porsche is going with some kind of artificial fuel for their top tier vehicles. And I like Porsches, but I'd buy another old Porsche before I'd consider something with an electric motor in it.

The artificial fuel you're talking about is a very long term research project of Porsche's... I don't think they have any plans to use that in any production vehicles anytime soon. How even could they? No one has access to synthetic fuel.



Also, I will say from a personal standpoint... I don't really need 600 hp (and yes, I also care about how much fuel I'd be buying to feed those 600 horses). The Mustang GT (and my Mach 1) is already pushing the limits of power that is usable on the street. On track, to some extent, yes, more power is always nice, but it does slow down learning. Power only really adds so much fun beyond a certain saturation point, at which point it becomes pretty much about bragging rights. At least on a proper road course, and I DGAF about drag racing.

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[agreywolfe]

The artificial fuel you're talking about is a very long term research project of Porsche's... I don't think they have any plans to use that in any production vehicles anytime soon. How even could they? No one has access to synthetic fuel.

their current plan is to run the fuel in their Porsche SuperCup with the long term plan of being able to ramp production to allow for use in public vehicles at competitive prices, granted this alone wont save the ICE, at most it will offset people who live in areas where EV's arent entirely feasible for daily life.

 

[RocketGuy3]

their current plan is to run the fuel in their Porsche SuperCup with the long term plan of being able to ramp production to allow for use in public vehicles at competitive prices, granted this alone wont save the ICE, at most it will offset people who live in areas where EV's arent entirely feasible for daily life.

Right, I know they're planning on using it in racing short term. It will be a long time before it's a viable option for street cars, though. I don't think their goal is to make it an alternative for people who literally can't use EVs, I think it's just a means to ease the transition to EVs as there's just no way we have the resources or ability to convert the entire planet over to EVs in the next couple decades. (Although I guess you could argue that that's the same thing to some extent)

 

[IceGamer]

[*]Again, most importantly, consider the competition. How many performance vehicles remaining on the market are giving you the displacement and power gains you want every generation? I already showed you that Porsche is not really doing what you seem to be asking for, and will be doing even less going forward. Meanwhile many other car makes and models are WAY behind the Mustang in terms of generational improvements. Many of them have seen the most marginal power tweaks over the better part of two decades, and some just don't even exist anymore. If you don't like what Ford is doing, what are your other options?


Also, I will say from a personal standpoint... I don't really need 600 hp (and yes, I also care about how much fuel I'd be buying to feed those 600 horses). The Mustang GT (and my Mach 1) is already pushing the limits of power that is usable on the street. On track, to some extent, yes, more power is always nice, but it does slow down learning. Power only really adds so much fun beyond a certain saturation point, at which point it becomes pretty much about bragging rights. At least on a proper road course, and I DGAF about drag racing.

What you didn't consider is more hp doesn't necessarily mean better performance and vice versa. I can't speak for Asian manufacturer but here in Germany every generation is exactly that - a new generation with meaningful improvements and measurable better performance. They might increase the hp by 20 or so but the performance gain is achieved by other improvements. AWD, drive train, clutch, chassis...
I don't remember a single manufacturer where improvements were so incremental as they are in the upcoming S650.

It's good and fresh looking but appart from that we get a lackluster infotainment system and the rest are S550 carryovers.

I think the problem that most, me included, have is the fact that the mustang should be a bargain but it simply isn't anymore. Outside of the US prices have skyrocketed by 50% and the value isn't there anymore... What's even more frustrating is that the Chevrolet did what everyone wanted for the Mustang: they invested in the Corvette and the rest is history. Why is it still not possible to order a C8 at MSRP? Because their investment paid off big time. Everyone is speaking about the C8 even almost three years after its arrival.

Anyhow, regarding the topic: a bargain GT3 car sounds impossible ;)

 

[RocketGuy3]

What you didn't consider is more hp doesn't necessarily mean better performance and vice versa. I can't speak for Asian manufacturer but here in Germany every generation is exactly that - a new generation with meaningful improvements and measurable better performance. They might increase the hp by 20 or so but the performance gain is achieved by other improvements. AWD, drive train, clutch, chassis...
I don't remember a single manufacturer where improvements were so incremental as they are in the upcoming S650.

It's good and fresh looking but appart from that we get a lackluster infotainment system and the rest are S550 carryovers.

I think the problem that most, me included, have is the fact that the mustang should be a bargain but it simply isn't anymore. Outside of the US prices have skyrocketed by 50% and the value isn't there anymore... What's even more frustrating is that the Chevrolet did what everyone wanted for the Mustang: they invested in the Corvette and the rest is history. Why is it still not possible to order a C8 at MSRP? Because their investment paid off big time. Everyone is speaking about the C8 even almost three years after its arrival.

Anyhow, regarding the topic: a bargain GT3 car sounds impossible ;)

It seems like part of how they made the C8 a bargain is by undercooking it . There's already been like 20 TSIBs on that DCT, and god knows how many problems that new FPC V8 will have... But regardless, it's certainly an amazing amount of performance for the money. I think demand is only part of the price problem. The market in general has been completely insane for two years now, and supply chain issues are part of it.

Anyway, I agree that this generation sounds a bit underwhelming to me overall. I just disagree strongly about the power/displacement issues. I think 26 additional hp (technically 36 hp from the last two years) while keeping an NA V8 is incredible by today's standards.

 

[Osage]

It’s a race-ready motor that can be safely supercharged to add another 200HP. Why are we complaining!?

 

[guzie]

It’s a race-ready motor that can be safely supercharged to add another 200HP. Why are we complaining!?

Because it’s the internet and there are always those that will complain about something.

 

[Spectre]

I for one would love a street version Mustang with that noise. I don't care what the displacement might be.

However, look at the MSRP of the base Dark Horse. Then realize if Ford does a streetable GT3, it will likely cost at least good 20k more (at least!). Starting to get a bit ridiculous, no?

But why? What do the 6.2 and 6.4 achieve that the 5.0 doesn't? I see more 5.0s being modded, and making higher power outputs, implying it's more tuner friendly. Quadruple digit 5.0 builds are common place in car culture, I don't think I've ever seen a 6.4 with that kind of power output, and only a few 6.2s hovering near there. Most sources imply the 5.0 is at least as reliable, if not more reliable than both of those engines. It revs higher, it responds quicker, it sounds better imo.

Sound is subjective, but the Chevy LT 6.2 is dimensionally more compact than the Coyote, because pushrod engines are able to fit more cubes into a smaller total space. It is also for this reason they are far cheaper to modify, at least from an NA perspective. It costs a lot less to buy one cam vs four. Not to take anything away from the Coyote as it's a great, stout engine, but the SBCs are nothing to sneeze at.

 

[DeluxeStang]

I for one would love a street version Mustang with that noise. I don't care what the displacement might be.

However, look at the MSRP of the base Dark Horse. Then realize if Ford does a streetable GT3, it will likely cost at least good 20k more (at least!). Starting to get a bit ridiculous, no?


Sound is subjective, but the Chevy LT 6.2 is dimensionally more compact than the Coyote, because pushrod engines are able to fit more cubes into a smaller total space. It is also for this reason they are far cheaper to modify, at least from an NA perspective. It costs a lot less to buy one cam vs four. Not to take anything away from the Coyote as it's a great, stout engine, but the SBCs are nothing to sneeze at.

Even if the 6.2 was compact, and cheaper to modify, there has to be a reason that engine, while receiving some support in the aftermarket community, hasn't gained the cult following the 5.0 has.

 

[Spectre]

Even if the 6.2 was compact, and cheaper to modify, there has to be a reason that engine, while receiving some support in the aftermarket community, hasn't gained the cult following the 5.0 has.

Hard to modify what no one bought in the first place ;).

Regardless of sales, that doesn't change the facts that the LT motor is cheaper to modify and also quite mod-friendly.

 

[thePill]

There is a very good chance that the GT350 returns as a limited, 3 year run as the GT3 “Street” version. The old GT350 was always slated to run to 2022 and possibly continue into the refresh. There WILL NOT be a short wheelbase S650 and it appears as if there WILL NOT be another Flat-Plane Crank V8 in the next GT350 IF Ford produces one at all.

A way to keep a GT350 and GT500’s MSRP low for the S650 would be to share the drivetrains. The exception being the GT500 being either Supercharged or, to utilize Direct Injection and Dual Throttle Bodies, Twin Turbo EcoBoosted. Along with saving cost with the S650 refresh, the 350 and 500 sharing drivetrains would help.

Is there time for that though? Farley can let a GT350 slip in January 2024 for GT3. I believe the 2015 was shown around Daytona in 2015 but can’t remember. If R&D on the 5.4 occurs simultaneously, Jim could show a new GT350 in January and push out a 2024.5 that summer. If all goes well, we could see a GT500 12-18 months after that…

 

[OppoLock]

There is a very good chance that the GT350 returns as a limited, 3 year run as the GT3 “Street” version. The old GT350 was always slated to run to 2022 and possibly continue into the refresh. There WILL NOT be a short wheelbase S650 and it appears as if there WILL NOT be another Flat-Plane Crank V8 in the next GT350 IF Ford produces one at all.

A way to keep a GT350 and GT500’s MSRP low for the S650 would be to share the drivetrains. The exception being the GT500 being either Supercharged or, to utilize Direct Injection and Dual Throttle Bodies, Twin Turbo EcoBoosted. Along with saving cost with the S650 refresh, the 350 and 500 sharing drivetrains would help.

Is there time for that though? Farley can let a GT350 slip in January 2024 for GT3. I believe the 2015 was shown around Daytona in 2015 but can’t remember. If R&D on the 5.4 occurs simultaneously, Jim could show a new GT350 in January and push out a 2024.5 that summer. If all goes well, we could see a GT500 12-18 months after that…

Is there a source for any of these claims

 

[Lastoutlaw_21]

I don't see how you make all these different types of mustang when Ford struggled making the s550 and people didn't get their car still. Now we at the s650 and they are already struggling with supply issues and being overwhelmed to where they pushed back the DH schedule date it seems. So if they are doing that then how the fuck they gonna do a gt3 and gt500 in a shorter time frame than the previous gen? Then dealers gonna mark it up by 50-150k as a special car because it a different name, a specialty car, and they can make them that fast. Just stick to the current line up, add the gt500, make the best versions of those cars you can possibly make. Dont make a new name at all. Just give use different versions of the GT500. An NA GT500, Superchargered, or TT would be a killer and smarter way to do shit. You give people ways to customize the gt500. Base could be a regular NA gt500 then Supercharger or TT is just based on how you want your power delivery. The vette you knew every option and car version bc its consistent and they had a plan for the c8. Ford seems to not have a plan smh. Dealers gonna inflate every new name car. Just keep gt500 and add the change to that car.

 

[thePill]

Is there a source for any of these claims

Never… even if there was, the personnel that leaked all of info dumps between 2012 and 2018 have all moved on.

However, the same sources that leaked the S550 GT350 would continue until MY22 was also the same source that suggested the GT350 would eventually debut as Mustang’s GT3 entry. We spoke about this info in great detail, even suggesting that Ford was engineering a 5.5 liter V8 since 2016.

Though things change… we were told Ford was “all in” on a Flat Plane V8 due to the mechanical advantage but, it appears that will change…

We heard the GT350/500 might be their own lineup with potentially a shorter wheelbase but that appears to have changed…

We were certain a GT350 would release as a 2024 but, Ford may not make the cutoff. We will see in January…

With the Camaro gone, nothing from 2023 forward is set in stone. The Camaro’s death leaked in late 2016 and we reported on that so heavily we were banned from all GM events and automotive sites. Our greatest fear was that Ford would relax and not produce a 60th Anniversary GT500 in 2017 and, behold, we were screwed inadvertently.

All we know is, we were told many things about the S650 years before it was released. They even got the wheelbase and platform details correct… we only assume the GT350 will be produced to homogenized the GT3 car w/ a Cross Plane 5.4 V8. Targeting 100hp per liter, we’re looking at 540-550hp and if there’s no FPC issues to tend with, it might be a great engine in a great car.

 

[agreywolfe]

Never… even if there was, the personnel that leaked all of info dumps between 2012 and 2018 have all moved on.

yeah unfortunately the world is very different now than it was back then too, chances are good a lot of that was in the works until 2020 happened. while i doubt they would cancel it all together, i believe they will at the very least miss the MY 2024 deadline for the GT350/GT3.

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