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With the s650 GT being an AWD hybrid v8 - would it still be considered a muscle car?

Bikeman315

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Automotive journalists still quote it as one. They are more qualified at this than you, so we will go with that.

But you are right, they should probably just stick to calling it a sports coupe or German muscle car since it basically out performs all of the Pony cars at just about every performance category, no sense in lumping it in with them.

Same with the Mercedes AMG C63S and Audi RS5.
I'm willing to bet that most of the journalists that are making this statement weren't even alive in 1965 nor owned a 1964 1/2 Mustang. I was both. So I consider myself to be qualified to make the statements I did.

The M4 is an awesome car. Muscle for sure, but at the end of the day it's a two door coupe.
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Rothgray

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I'm willing to bet that most of the journalists that are making this statement weren't even alive in 1965 nor owned a 1964 1/2 Mustang. I was both. So I consider myself to be qualified to make the statements I did.

The M4 is an awesome car. Muscle for sure, but at the end of the day it's a two door coupe.
That does not make you qualified.

Let's face it, the 7th Gen Mustang is trying to become a 4 Series BMW.
 

LSchicago

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You DO WANT AWD you just haven't had a car with proper AWD. Look at the BMW G80 M3... The xdrive M3 combines both, AWD AND RWD. One can easily switch between them by pushing a single button. Yes, the entire system is slightly heavier ~50kg but we're talking about an already heavy cars so probably no one would notice the difference.

The question is can FORD build such a system or notā€¦ I have my doubtsā€¦
Ford can do anything they want. I mean they did beat Ferrari at Lemans 3 years in a row, with a car that was quickly designed. Ferrari deserved that though.
 

Charlemagne

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Same with the Mercedes AMG C63S and Audi RS5.
I looked on those when I was buying Mach 1. A lot. In the end they're 30kā‚¬ more expensive here than Mach 1 and provide lesser experience, look worse, sound worse. Also BMW M4 and Audi RS5 look like any other BMW or Audi, and I never liked Mercedes :sunglasses: In the end mustangs don't really compete with those.
 

Rothgray

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I looked on those when I was buying Mach 1. A lot. In the end they're 30kā‚¬ more expensive here than Mach 1 and provide lesser experience, look worse, sound worse. Also BMW M4 and Audi RS5 look like any other BMW or Audi, and I never liked Mercedes :sunglasses: In the end mustangs don't really compete with those.
Going to have to disagree, they look less like their lesser counterparts, than a Mach 1 looks like a GT. As far as the experience? Let's just put it out there, they were out of your budget.
 


IceGamer

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Automotive journalists still quote it as one. They are more qualified at this than you, so we will go with that.

But you are right, they should probably just stick to calling it a sports coupe or German muscle car since it basically out performs all of the Pony cars at just about every performance category, no sense in lumping it in with them.

Same with the Mercedes AMG C63S and Audi RS5.
Sry but as a German I can tell you that at least here in the EU no one refers to the M3/M4 as a Pony car. There was a short period in time in which the E90 and the W204 (maybe W205) were considered German ā€˜muscle carsā€™ due to their V8 engines but I couldnā€™t quote a single magazine writing that these were ā€˜Pony carsā€™. They never were and theyā€™ll never be. I owe a current 3 series and I love the car. Lovely 6 cylinder engine, luxurious interiorā€¦ However, itā€™s far off from what a ā€˜muscle carā€™ should provideā€¦
Maybe itā€™s just me but a pure muscle car needs a V8 and at least 5 liter of engine displacement. The only German car that was close to it was the W204 C63 AMG with its 6.3L engineā€¦

Donā€™t get me wrong, the G80 cars are absolutely astonishing (apart from their fugly front fascia) but they are no Pony cars and never will be. They are an equivalent to the American muscle cars and are therefore sometimes called ā€˜German muscle carsā€™ but I donā€™t like that term eitherā€¦ W206 AMG will be a 4 cylinder engine, RS and M3/4 still have their 6 cylinder enginesā€¦ I would compare a muscle car to a bodybuilder contestā€¦ Itā€™s unique, those who like muscle will love the looks but if you want a display of strength opt for something different.
 

Charlemagne

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They most definitely were not. I wouldn't max out M4 Competition but I could afford it, didn't take any loan for Mach 1 either and with PPF and addons I paid like 80kā‚¬ already. I would swallow the beaver teeth but like I said, I love Mustang's look and the sound of the engine/exhaust far more. M4 had nothing more to offer to me for 20-25kā‚¬. If I wanted power, I could get supercharger for 10kā‚¬ but I'm totally fine with the power. To each their own. Feeling of owning an American legend is priceless as well :like:

What I couldn't afford is Porsche 911, but for half the price I got more anyway, so better deal :rockon:
 

Rothgray

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Sry but as a German I can tell you that at least here in the EU no one refers to the M3/M4 as a Pony car. There was a short period in time in which the E90 and the W204 (maybe W205) were considered German ā€˜muscle carsā€™ due to their V8 engines but I couldnā€™t quote a single magazine writing that these were ā€˜Pony carsā€™. They never were and theyā€™ll never be. I owe a current 3 series and I love the car. Lovely 6 cylinder engine, luxurious interiorā€¦ However, itā€™s far off from what a ā€˜muscle carā€™ should provideā€¦
Maybe itā€™s just me but a pure muscle car needs a V8 and at least 5 liter of engine displacement. The only German car that was close to it was the W204 C63 AMG with its 6.3L engineā€¦

Donā€™t get me wrong, the G80 cars are absolutely astonishing (apart from their fugly front fascia) but they are no Pony cars and never will be. They are an equivalent to the American muscle cars and are therefore sometimes called ā€˜German muscle carsā€™ but I donā€™t like that term eitherā€¦ W206 AMG will be a 4 cylinder engine, RS and M3/4 still have their 6 cylinder enginesā€¦ I would compare a muscle car to a bodybuilder contestā€¦ Itā€™s unique, those who like muscle will love the looks but if you want a display of strength opt for something different.
Yet, they meet the exact configuration of a pony car and have been called as such. How are they different?
 
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Rothgray

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They most definitely were not. I wouldn't max out M4 Competition but I could afford it, didn't take any loan for Mach 1 either and with PPF and addons I paid like 80kā‚¬ already. I would swallow the beaver teeth but like I said, I love Mustang's look and the sound of the engine/exhaust far more. M4 had nothing more to offer to me for 20-25kā‚¬. If I wanted power, I could get supercharger for 10kā‚¬ but I'm totally fine with the power. To each their own. Feeling of owning an American legend is priceless as well :like:

What I couldn't afford is Porsche 911, but for half the price I got more anyway, so better deal :rockon:
Your comment of, they do not offer more of an experience is incorrect. but you are right, the M4 is really more of a GT500 competitor. Owning both, it is definitely a comparison I can make.
 

IceGamer

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Going to have to disagree, they look less like their lesser counterparts, than a Mach 1 looks like a GT. As far as the experience? Let's just put it out there, they were out of your budget.
wow, no need to insult someone...
He's right. I've driven all of your called 'German muscle' cars... They're much faster than anything else in that price range but they are nowhere near as fun. Iā€™m talking about Germany only but here no-one cares if you have an AMG or M car. Depending on where youā€™re from they are basically everywhereā€¦ Besides, they come in almost all shapes and sizesā€¦ sedan, estate, convertible, coupe, A63, C63, E63 S63ā€¦

A Mustang on the other hand is something rather special. Not as special as it used to be but still a unique car. Drawing in attention is part of the driving experience and I can tell you that here in Germany a Pony always wins.
In terms of driving it depends on what you want. If youā€™re in for the numbers, the Germans always wins. But then again, why not going for a Tesla Plaid from the get go? xDrive versions are only available as AT cars and have the same lame sound as the MT versions. I take sound and attention over numbers but there is really no wrong answer to this.
 

Charlemagne

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It's not a competitor when it doesn't have V8. Jaguar F-Type R is a competitor, but price-wise not really. For me V8 is part of the experience. Unique look is part of the experience. Feel free to disagree. There's BMW on every corner, who cares, really? šŸ˜

In direct reviews the reviewers choose Mustang, guess why.




On topic, Mustang doesn't need AWD and it doesn't need more power. It's fine as is. These power wars are silly anyway.
 

Rothgray

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wow, no need to insult someone...
He's right. I've driven all of your called 'German muscle' cars... They're much faster than anything else in that price range but they are nowhere near as fun. Iā€™m talking about Germany only but here no-one cares if you have an AMG or M car. Depending on where youā€™re from they are basically everywhereā€¦ Besides, they come in almost all shapes and sizesā€¦ sedan, estate, convertible, coupe, A63, C63, E63 S63ā€¦

A Mustang on the other hand is something rather special. Not as special as it used to be but still a unique car. Drawing in attention is part of the driving experience and I can tell you that here in Germany a Pony always wins.
In terms of driving it depends on what you want. If youā€™re in for the numbers, the Germans always wins. But then again, why not going for a Tesla Plaid from the get go? xDrive versions are only available as AT cars and have the same lame sound as the MT versions. I take sound and attention over numbers but there is really no wrong answer to this.
There's no insult, go back and re-read. when you say price in one sentence, and the next you cop out and give a vague excuse of experience, and then compare the vehicles. Any reasonable person can say "they most likely were not in your budget". To say those German coupes lack an experience, shows the individual was not educated on them, or did not cross shop them.

If he wanted the best Mustang experience he could get and had no problem affording the M4 or C63S, why not buy the GT500 then?
 

IceGamer

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There's no insult, go back and re-read. when you say price in one sentence, and the next you cop out and give a vague excuse of experience, and then compare the vehicles. Any reasonable person can say "they most likely were not in your budget". To say those German coupes lack an experience, shows the individual was not educated on them, or did not cross shop them.

If he wanted the best Mustang experience he could get and had no problem affording the M4 or C63S, why not buy the GT500 then?
Manual Transmission...

But I do get your point.
 

Charlemagne

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I have 10R80 šŸ˜ Why not buy GT500? Because it's not sold in Europe obviously. Imported car costs twice more than Mach 1 which is silly to me. I don't need the power, 500 hp is totally fine for me. Otherwise look-wise I love GT500, the rear end is almost the same on Mach 1 which is great. It's best looking Mustang ever.

Your idea of experience is different from mine. When I wanted "American V8 muscle car experience", wth would I buy German BMW? I don't deny its riding and handling qualities. Different people have different tastes so just accept that.

In the end I don't care about quality of luxurious materials, or 20k worth of options like carbon stuff and driver assists. Looks, sounds and ride won me over and I'm so glad they did, no regrets whatsoever :sunglasses: Even more so when I'm pretty sure S650 will look worse than Mach 1 to me šŸ˜
 

Hack

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The BMW / Merc debate is interesting to me. I've considered BMW, and if they still made a reasonably priced vehicle with a V8 RWD and a manual I would be interested. I drove a 2003 M3 a few years ago and if it wouldn't have been in limp mode I might have purchased it. I really liked that car, but the info about costly repairs made me think twice The last time I drove a newer M car I was happy to get back into my GT350 and drive away. The turbo straight 6 just doesn't tempt me - at least not for the money. The Mercedes models that I would consider buying cost way too much as well.

Bottom line, they just don't seem like a good value for the money to me.
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