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The V8 - S650 and beyond

DeluxeStang

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But getting back in track with this discussion, a hydrogen powered v8 would be a great idea for future mustangs. Doing gas only mustangs isn't going to be sustainable long term with increasing environmental regulations. Going with strictly evs would be a hard sale for a lot of hardcore enthusiasts. A hydrogen v8 would sound somewhat similar to a gas powered v8, according to a lot of individuals, they also feel quite similar to a gas engine in terms of driving experience and driving dynamics, all while producing essentially zero emissions. It's an almost perfect solution.
 

Hack

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But getting back in track with this discussion, a hydrogen powered v8 would be a great idea for future mustangs. Doing gas only mustangs isn't going to be sustainable long term with increasing environmental regulations. Going with strictly evs would be a hard sale for a lot of hardcore enthusiasts. A hydrogen v8 would sound somewhat similar to a gas powered v8, according to a lot of individuals, they also feel quite similar to a gas engine in terms of driving experience and driving dynamics, all while producing essentially zero emissions. It's an almost perfect solution.
If the cost were comparable to a gas engine and it didn't require an enormous infrastructure change I would agree it's a good solution (to a problem that doesn't exist).

I personally think the best solution is to continue with gas powered ICEs until we have an alternative solution that is better. What that means to me is let the free markets work and people will buy whatever they prefer. If nobody buys ICEs, then they go away. If people continue to only buy ~3% EVs, then that continues.

Possibly commuters who don't care about cars will buy EVs and enthusiasts will buy V8s. And if the enthusiasts think like you they will buy EVs or hydrogen vehicles (if available).

Yes there is some very slight warming from higher CO2 levels, but it's not a dire situation. And us stopping using gas in cars won't do anything at all when China is continuing to use it. We all know cars aren't the biggest emitters anyway. None of it really makes sense if you think about the overall picture.

I believe that most people think the same as me. Otherwise people wouldn't be buying big pickups in the millions per year and all these large SUVs. People would live close to work and walk/bike or work remotely. At a minimum they would purchase very small vehicles. People would stop having kids, because that is a huge carbon emitter. People would stop eating meat.

Anyway it seems like the majority buy their huge gas burning vehicles and pretend that they believe this stuff because they think it's hip to do that. But in reality they aren't worried about the slight warming that some theories predict. They definitely won't worry about all the past predictions that have been incorrect.

So I'm with the people that hope the Mustang continues to have a V8. I also hope the displacement and power of the V8 engines in Mustangs continue to increase.
 

21 antimatter

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Hydrogen or natural gas would be cool. I'm hoping that eventually a gasoline substitute can be manufactured with renewable energy so that old school engines can still be used without adding to climate change. Whatever can be done to keep that Ford V8 sound and help us stop destroying the planet with CO2. Sometimes I feel guilty driving my GT but the visceral feeling and satisfaction from driving it is too real to ignore...I'm a spoiled 1st world American. My mustang just brings back so many memories. The S550 is just such a damn nice car. My 5th Mustang and out of the 14 different makes/models of cars that I've owned it's my hands down favorite. American made muscle. If I end up keeping this one for more than a year or two I could see eventually swapping in an electric powertrain if the ICE dies off quickly. But nothing sounds like a Ford V8 to me, there is no substitute.
 
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9secondko

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So you want to compare the engine of a most likely $120k+ car to an engine that somehow has to bei in sub $40k car?

Ford has twin turbo tech down. And they’ve been creating some of the best boosted v8s for a long time now - affordable ones. They can certainly use turbos instead of a supercharger on a forged long block and keep it affordable. If they can do it with ecoboodt 6s, they can do it with 8s.

it’s all a matter of desire. And right now, the hippies are beating the car guys in the boardroom. Either go electric hybrid or eco boost the v8.

The point is the argument that you can make a twin turbo smaller engine outperform a naturally aspirated latger engine is ridiculous. Of course! Forced induction is a big deal. But start with thr v8 foundation and it’s even better.

Make a smaller TTV8 if you have to. but give it enough displacement for the air moving capacity of two extra cylinders to matter. Otherwise it’s counterproductive.
 
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Twin Turbo

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You can wish for a new smaller TT V8 all you want, but it 'aint happening. I suspect the forthcoming 6.8 pushrod V8 will be the last "all new" V8 Ford develops. And the ONLY reason that is being developed is for the big trucks. Will it be put in the Mustang? I still think that's unlikely, but not impossible, but if they do it'd better be an alloy block version to reduce weight over the nose.

However, I believe the Coyote is still good enough to see service throughout S650's lifecycle. Hopefully S650 will introduce a 4th Gen version.
 

9secondko

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You can wish for a new smaller TT V8 all you want, but it 'aint happening. I suspect the forthcoming 6.8 pushrod V8 will be the last "all new" V8 Ford develops. And the ONLY reason that is being developed is for the big trucks. Will it be put in the Mustang? I still think that's unlikely, but not impossible, but if they do it'd better be an alloy block version to reduce weight over the nose.

However, I believe the Coyote is still good enough to see service throughout S650's lifecycle. Hopefully S650 will introduce a 4th Gen version.
I think that’s unfortunately the case. But that wasn’t the point. The point was to shine light on the straw man argument about the forced induction engine versus a naturally aspirated engine.

I also hope there is a new gen coyote for s650 and hopefully it gets the home run engineering it deserves.

If this is closing the history books on the v8, send it with a bang.

an enthusiast can dream… even when the flower children want to crush those dreams.
 

Falc'man

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https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/windsor-engine-plants-still-part-of-fords-long-term-plans

Windsor engine plants still part of Ford's long-term plans

Author of the article:
Dave Waddell

Publishing date:
Apr 19, 2022 • April 19, 2022 • 3 minute read •
Join the conversation

07-7-3-v8_101032762-w.jpg
Ford of Canada introduces the new 7.3L V8 gasoline engine at Windsor Engine Annex Plant February 7, 2019. Photo by Nick Brancaccio /Windsor Star

Despite Ford Motor Company’s aggressive push into the electric vehicle market, the company has reassured Unifor officials it sees the internal combustion engines produced in its Windsor plants as an important product offering until 2040.


Unifor Local 200 president John D’Agnolo met with Ford vice president of Americas manufacturing John Savona and vice president labour affairs Kevin Legel last week in Toronto for an update on the company’s plans for its Canadian operations.

“They’re still a long way from getting out of the combustion side when it comes to the trucks,” D’Agnolo said.

“They don’t see until 2040 before they get out of the combustion side of it.

“Right now, I looked at their plans for the next three years and it’s steady at both sites (Essex Engine, Annex Engine). I was quite happy with that.”

D’Agnolo admitted he was a little anxious prior to the meeting. The company will begin production this month of the electric Ford F-150 Lightning pickup truck with its yearly production quota already sold out.
unifor-presser.jpg
Unifor Local 200 president John D’Agnolo speaks during a press conference on Thursday, May 7, 2020, in Windsor. Photo by Dan Janisse /Windsor Star

However, Ford made clear it will continue to rely on its Windsor-built engines to power its most popular and most profitable products, including the F-series pickup trucks and the Mustang.

“They were quite positive,” D’Agnolo said. “That’s where they make their profits to invest into the battery electric vehicle side.

“Right now, those truck engines are their bread and butter and they’re not going to be making any changes whatsoever when it comes to that.”

D’Agnolo said the company confirmed demand for the Windsor-built 5.0-litre, 7.3-litre and the soon to be launched 6.8-litre engine remains strong.

He added he expects the transition to EV products will likely come more quickly than anticipated with the evolution of technology. The federal government has also set a 2035 deadline for all new car and light truck sales to be electric.

However, heavy duty pickup trucks will not fall under that federal ban.

“I don’t think they’ll be able to transition out of that (heavy duty trucks) too quickly,” D’Agnolo said.

“Anyone just driving a truck, like the F-150, maybe we’ll be looking at that differently.”

07-fanella.jpg
Ford team leader Rino Fanella works on the new, 7.3L V-8 engine at Ford Windsor Engine Plant Annex site Feb. 7, 2019. Photo by Nick Brancaccio /Windsor Star

D’Agnolo also continued to lobby the company to prepare to place other products in Windsor when the time for combustion products comes to an end.

“I talked to them about the importance of that because we’re going to be one of the last to be producing on the combustion side,” D’Agnolo said.

“We can’t be forgotten because of that. They recognize the quality and productivity of our workforce.”

Of more concern to both the company and Unifor in the short term are the supply chain problems being experienced by all automakers.

The addition of the new 6.8-litre engine at Windsor’s Annex plant was supposed to create a third shift this fall, but hiring has been paused and the launch of the shift is unknown because of the microchip shortage.

“The third shift would be on if we had the chips,” said D’Agnolo, who added the industry is also plagued by logistic cost issues, a lack of truck drivers and other parts shortages to a degree its never experienced before.

“The problem is they can’t guarantee the chips to run a third shift. They didn’t give any indication or timeline when they’d be ready to go with the third shift.”

D’Agnolo said the 1,700 chips required for an electric F-150 Lightning are eight times the number in the current F-150.

Along with microchips, Ford is also going to need more battery plants to supply the five electric vehicles that will be produced at its sprawling Oakville complex.
 

Hack

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You can wish for a new smaller TT V8 all you want, but it 'aint happening. I suspect the forthcoming 6.8 pushrod V8 will be the last "all new" V8 Ford develops. And the ONLY reason that is being developed is for the big trucks. Will it be put in the Mustang? I still think that's unlikely, but not impossible, but if they do it'd better be an alloy block version to reduce weight over the nose.

However, I believe the Coyote is still good enough to see service throughout S650's lifecycle. Hopefully S650 will introduce a 4th Gen version.
We'd be a lot better off if Ford would take an existing engine like the 6.2 from the Raptor and modify it adding better breathing DOHC cylinder heads and making it naturally aspirated if they don't want to develop an entirely new engine. The 5.0 is a little tapped out. In the last 10 years Ford has added a little power, but not much. Ford would save a lot of money by just going to a larger displacement engine that will make the power reliably without being tweaked near the maximum they can get out of it.

The bonus is they could make a boosted version of the 6.2 and get a lot better Raptor sales as well.
 

thePill

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…the S650 was actually developed around the physical dimensions of the Coyote V8, even more so than the S550 did.
 

Falc'man

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There was a piece written a while back from an insider saying the money spent on the flat plane cranked voodoo could have gone towards making the XPC spin to 9000rpm.

But, re Voodoo, that was capable of 600hp (back in 2013) with some exotic materials. Unnecessary considering the GT350 didn't warrant such a power hike and considering the Boss 302 was only 444hp, so they used the cheaper materials and stuck to 101hp/litre.

The volumetric efficiency of the Gen 3 Coyote is super-impressive. There's no other mainstream engine that is close and It's bettered only by a few exotic engines. The new LT6 only matches the Coyote's VE. In other words it does in fact have the potential to produce over 600hp. But as always there's a cost involved - a ceiling with how much power a certain price-point could realistically offer. It can go up slowly and incrementally but expecting 500+hp from the GT is, I'm guessing, unrealistic. I wouldn't throw such a thing out of bed, though.

The specials, however, well, what's a realistic power figure/increase for the GT350 replacement? 560hp? And how about the GT500, 790hp?

If they want cubes we know it can be taken to 5.4, and there's even a 5.6 CGI block (good for 2000hp boosted applications) in their arsenal.

An atmo 5.4 Boss331 with 560hp and 460ft.lbs would be feral, and it won't have the dreaded torque hole of the Voodoo.

Add electric motor for the GT500.
 

Hack

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I agree with what you are saying, @Falc'man. That's why I'm advocating more cubic inches. It's a lot cheaper to build a larger, less optimized engine. And the result will be a more reliable engine as well. Increase the bore size and decrease or keep the same stroke to make the engine more reliable at high rpm. There's plenty of length available in the engine compartment, but you don't want the engine getting wider.
 
 
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