V8, V8 Hybrid, All Electric, which mustang will be the most desirable?

[dethmaShine]

Are the V8 hybrid rumors credible? Any leaks that suggest that to be the case?

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[IceGamer]

Unfortunately not. The only thing we have is a patent from 2017 or something and since then a lot of stuff has happened over at FORD…

At this point it’s almost doubtful that there will be a hybrid V8. The Mustang itself doesn’t really sell all that many units to justify high research costs. Therefore most of the engines are used in the F-series as well. Due to this day there is no hybrid V8 in any F-series or whatsoever and rumors don’t suggest it’s coming anytime soon. The only V8 hybrid I know off will be in the AMG GT73 and that is a high-performance car with 800+HP. As a result I don’t think that Ford will spend any money on hybrid V8 that might be put in a very limited number of cars. It’s far more likely that we’ll get the V6 hybrid that is already available in the F-series. I would bet on a tune so that the V6 might end up with 500-600hp but I doubt there will be a hybrid V8.

 

[Jason304]

The only way I would ever consider anything electric is if it were a hybrid were the V8 drives the rear wheels and electric motors drive the front when the additional traction is needed.

 

[BoostRabbitGT]

I'd go with the V8 hybrid, but only if it answers these questions in the affirmative...

1. Does it get fuel economy that matches or exceeds the current EcoBoost?
2. Is the power/torque delivery lean more towards natural aspiration than turbocharged? (I don't know how supercharger power/torque deliver works at the time of this writing.)

From the news I've read, it sounds like only the hybrid will potentially have AWD available as an option (assuming I remember right). If the fuel economy isn't at least EcoBoost levels on the hybrid V8, then I'd most likely stick with the pure V8 even if it does get substantially worse fuel economy in the city (I do 99% of my driving in the city). Real question for me is, will the traditional V8 get AWD as an available option?

(EDIT: I should clarify I'm just speculating as I'm as much in the dark as mostly everyone else around here.)

 

[hellohello123]

Due to personal circumstances I've had to sell my 2020 gt. It was painful to let go.

So now I've been reading about possible delays of the s650, it also pains me.
I'm looking for a forever mustang that I'll treasure

So it looks like since the s650 will have a v8 manual I'll be ordering one of these as soon as it's available unless it looks so bad, that I'll buy a new s550 when the time comes.

 

[Hack]

The only way I would ever consider anything electric is if it were a hybrid were the V8 drives the rear wheels and electric motors drive the front when the additional traction is needed.

I'm not very interested in hybrids because I assume they will cost more money and weigh more than a simpler, easier to repair NA ICE powered vehicle.

I would consider electric if the batteries worked as well as a gas tank. 250-300 mile range, less than 5 minutes to fill, easy to find a place to fill, and rarely ever wears out. Certainly if batteries are worn out in 10 years or 100,000 miles then I am not interested in an electric vehicle or hybrid.

 

[DeluxeStang]

I'm not very interested in hybrids because I assume they will cost more money and weigh more than a simpler, easier to repair NA ICE powered vehicle.

I would consider electric if the batteries worked as well as a gas tank. 250-300 mile range, less than 5 minutes to fill, easy to find a place to fill, and rarely ever wears out. Certainly if batteries are worn out in 10 years or 100,000 miles then I am not interested in an electric vehicle or hybrid.

I mean, virtually all powertrains will last 10-15 years, but straight gas engines are probably less reliable than most hybrids and evs. Hybrids eliminate the most problematic parts from gas engines, like starters and alternators, and evs are very simple, with hardly any moving parts. So the reliability if all three powertrains is actually the opposite of what most people think it will be.

 

[Hack]

I mean, virtually all powertrains will last 10-15 years, but straight gas engines are probably less reliable than most hybrids and evs. Hybrids eliminate the most problematic parts from gas engines, like starters and alternators, and evs are very simple, with hardly any moving parts. So the reliability if all three powertrains is actually the opposite of what most people think it will be.

It's very interesting and ironic to me that you picked out electrical devices like a starter and alternator as the least reliable parts of a "gas engine". I'm sure you realize that starters and alternators are essentially electric motors similar in many ways to the electric motors that push hybrids and EVs around.

I wouldn't say that electric motors are inherently unreliable. It all depends on the quality of construction and how much money is spent on the components.

I would say that currently EV batteries have a finite lifetime that is too short in comparison with current ICE components.

 

[DeluxeStang]

It's very interesting and ironic to me that you picked out electrical devices like a starter and alternator as the least reliable parts of a "gas engine". I'm sure you realize that starters and alternators are essentially electric motors similar in many ways to the electric motors that push EVs around.

I wouldn't say that electric motors are inherently unreliable. It all depends on the quality of construction and how much money is spent on the components.

I would say that currently EV batteries have a finite lifetime that is too short in comparison with current ICE components.

What I'm saying is most batteries and electric motors can last at least as long, if not longer than your typical ICE motor man. Ford and Gm unless I'm mistaken are both targeting million mile durability for future battery packs, Toyota claims they're designing their batteries for future vehicles to last 25-30 years.

 

[zackmd1]

It's very interesting and ironic to me that you picked out electrical devices like a starter and alternator as the least reliable parts of a "gas engine". I'm sure you realize that starters and alternators are essentially electric motors similar in many ways to the electric motors that push EVs around.

I wouldn't say that electric motors are inherently unreliable. It all depends on the quality of construction and how much money is spent on the components.

I would say that currently EV batteries have a finite lifetime that is too short in comparison with current ICE components.

Lets put this into another perspective…. How many gasoline engines do you know that can comfortably exceed 300k miles without needing an overhaul/rebuild? How many transmissions? Rear differential? What do you think the typical cost is for a complete powertrain replacement?

Now why do you think an EV with a battery that can last 500k miles is not good enough? What about electric drive units that last 1M miles? I just described to you what the Model 3 and Ys battery and drivetrain are designed and tested to. These are obviously currently existing EVs. Tesla’s next gen battery coming next year is suppose to be capable of up to 1M miles. What about the above is too short compared to ICE? battery life is measured in charge cycles, not time and thus directly tied to mileage.

Also, how many cars do you think get overhauled instead of just scrapped after the 2-300k mile mark? An EVs battery after the vehicle is scrapped is still useful in home energy storage applications as well. And even after that lifecycle can be recycled into a new battery.

You are setting artificial goal posts that not even ICE vehicles can achieve to explain why you don’t think EVs are good enough yet….

 

[Hack]

I'm not very interested in hybrids because I assume they will cost more money and weigh more than a simpler, easier to repair NA ICE powered vehicle.

I would consider electric if the batteries worked as well as a gas tank. 250-300 mile range, less than 5 minutes to fill, easy to find a place to fill, and rarely ever wears out. Certainly if batteries are worn out in 10 years or 100,000 miles then I am not interested in an electric vehicle or hybrid.

Lets put this into another perspective…. How many gasoline engines do you know that can comfortably exceed 300k miles without needing an overhaul/rebuild? How many transmissions? Rear differential? What do you think the typical cost is for a complete powertrain replacement?

Now why do you think an EV with a battery that can last 500k miles is not good enough? What about electric drive units that last 1M miles? I just described to you what the Model 3 and Ys battery and drivetrain are designed and tested to. These are obviously currently existing EVs. Tesla’s next gen battery coming next year is suppose to be capable of up to 1M miles. What about the above is too short compared to ICE? battery life is measured in charge cycles, not time and thus directly tied to mileage.

Also, how many cars do you think get overhauled instead of just scrapped after the 2-300k mile mark? An EVs battery after the vehicle is scrapped is still useful in home energy storage applications as well. And even after that lifecycle can be recycled into a new battery.

You are setting artificial goal posts that not even ICE vehicles can achieve to explain why you don’t think EVs are good enough yet….

I quoted myself because I think you might be replying to someone other than me. I'm not sure where the 500k mile or 200-300k mile info came from. Absolutely none of the "goal posts" you listed match up with what I said.

I would say most gas engines can last 300k miles. If they are naturally aspirated and have port fuel injection 300k miles is not unusual at all. But EVs don't last anywhere near that long. An ICE only has to last beyond 100k miles to beat an EV. Even the cheap junk DI turbo engines they are making now last longer than that.

If the new Tesla battery is capable of 1 million miles it will be a REVOLUTION. It will be so much better than any EVs currently on the road. Right now IIRC at 100k the batteries only have 80% capacity of new, which is pretty terrible and not competitive with ICE at all.

If the cars with 1 million mile batteries cost about the same as an ICE, then those EVs will be competitive with ICEs... other than it taking too long to charge the battery and being inconvenient to do so. Those would be the next problems with EVs that need to be solved. My guess is that the million mile batteries will cost a lot. So price competitiveness might not happen anytime soon.

And the recycling thing with batteries... obviously gas engines can be refurbished much more cheaply than buying new. Rings, seals and bearings along with a hone job...I wouldn't be surprised if an ICE engine rebuild is cheaper than rebuilding batteries. And people who don't want to spend the money to rebuild will just buy an ICE engine from the junkyard and swap it in. Super cheap.

 

[zackmd1]

I quoted myself because I think you might be replying to someone other than me. I'm not sure where the 500k mile or 200-300k mile info came from. Absolutely none of the "goal posts" you listed match up with what I said.

I would say most gas engines can last 300k miles. If they are naturally aspirated and have port fuel injection 300k miles is not unusual at all. But EVs don't last anywhere near that long. An ICE only has to last beyond 100k miles to beat an EV. Even the cheap junk DI turbo engines they are making now last longer than that.

If the new Tesla battery is capable of 1 million miles it will be a REVOLUTION. It will be so much better than any EVs currently on the road. Right now IIRC at 100k the batteries only have 80% capacity of new, which is pretty terrible and not competitive with ICE at all.

If the cars with 1 million mile batteries cost about the same as an ICE, then those EVs will be competitive with ICEs... other than it taking too long to charge the battery and being inconvenient to do so. Those would be the next problems with EVs that need to be solved. My guess is that the million mile batteries will cost a lot. So price competitiveness might not happen anytime soon.

And the recycling thing with batteries... obviously gas engines can be refurbished much more cheaply than buying new. Rings, seals and bearings along with a hone job...I wouldn't be surprised if an ICE engine rebuild is cheaper than rebuilding batteries. And people who don't want to spend the money to rebuild will just buy an ICE engine from the junkyard and swap it in. Super cheap.

What evidence do you have to say EVs don’t last that long? And where do you get 100k miles to 80%? Battery warranties are typically 100k to 80% not actual battery life…. There are 10+ year old Teslas on the road with over 90% original capacity remaining.

Here is real world data to back up my 500K mile statement. Teslas internal battery testing hit 500k miles on a battery with over 80% capacity remaining.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/amp/

And here is info on Teslas new CHEAPER 4680 battery potentially achieving 2M miles.

https://electrek.co/2020/10/18/tesla-battery-test-results-over-2-million-miles/amp/

And to top it off, you act like a battery is instantly unusable after you hit 80%. Where do you get that idea? It just means you will get 80% the range you would have got new. Very comparable to an equivalent age ICE vehicle with worsening MPG over time don’t you think?

Also, 99.99% of people who own vehicles do NOT rebuild engines or swap engines. They scrap the car and get another

 

[Hack]

What evidence do you have to say EVs don’t last that long? And where do you get 100k miles to 80%? Battery warranties are typically 100k to 80% not actual battery life…. There are 10+ year old Teslas on the road with over 90% original capacity remaining.

Here is real world data to back up my 500K mile statement. Teslas internal battery testing hit 500k miles on a battery with over 80% capacity remaining.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/amp/

And here is info on Teslas new CHEAPER 4680 battery potentially achieving 2M miles.

https://electrek.co/2020/10/18/tesla-battery-test-results-over-2-million-miles/amp/

And to top it off, you act like a battery is instantly unusable after you hit 80%. Where do you get that idea? It just means you will get 80% the range you would have got new. Very comparable to an equivalent age ICE vehicle with worsening MPG over time don’t you think?

Also, 99.99% of people who own vehicles do NOT rebuild engines or swap engines. They scrap the car and get another

The battery going to 80% is like losing fuel tank capacity on an ICE. Or if the fuel economy goes down. I had a coworker tell me this week that his Chevy Cruze with 350something thousand miles doesn't get as good fuel economy as it did years ago, so I agree it can happen to an ICE. And you are right, it's not unusable - it's just that it happens too soon on EVs. I can't remember where exactly I read it. C&D or one of those reviewed a Tesla and talked about the battery degrading exactly enough to avoid hitting a warranty claim, but still degrading more quickly than they would like.

I do think some of my attitude is bias-driven I will give you that. I think engines that use explosions are cool, and motors that are mostly silent do not seem cool to me. I remember there was a local radio show that talked about cylinder index. The idea being the more cylinders you own the more you can brag. I still subscribe to that way of thinking, at least to some extent.

There's nothing wrong with an electric or hybrid. You should buy what you like. Don't worry about what I think.

I'm going to stop junking up this thread for the people that actually want hybrid or electric.

 

[DeluxeStang]

I quoted myself because I think you might be replying to someone other than me. I'm not sure where the 500k mile or 200-300k mile info came from. Absolutely none of the "goal posts" you listed match up with what I said.

I would say most gas engines can last 300k miles. If they are naturally aspirated and have port fuel injection 300k miles is not unusual at all. But EVs don't last anywhere near that long. An ICE only has to last beyond 100k miles to beat an EV. Even the cheap junk DI turbo engines they are making now last longer than that.

If the new Tesla battery is capable of 1 million miles it will be a REVOLUTION. It will be so much better than any EVs currently on the road. Right now IIRC at 100k the batteries only have 80% capacity of new, which is pretty terrible and not competitive with ICE at all.

If the cars with 1 million mile batteries cost about the same as an ICE, then those EVs will be competitive with ICEs... other than it taking too long to charge the battery and being inconvenient to do so. Those would be the next problems with EVs that need to be solved. My guess is that the million mile batteries will cost a lot. So price competitiveness might not happen anytime soon.

And the recycling thing with batteries... obviously gas engines can be refurbished much more cheaply than buying new. Rings, seals and bearings along with a hone job...I wouldn't be surprised if an ICE engine rebuild is cheaper than rebuilding batteries. And people who don't want to spend the money to rebuild will just buy an ICE engine from the junkyard and swap it in. Super cheap.

Bro, there's a ton of evidence to support the fact that ev batteries will last well beyond 100k. The overwhelming majority of ev batteries will last well beyond 100k in fact. I genuinely don't understand why you think 100k is like the point at which ev batteries die. Sure, some batteries need to be replaced at that point, but there are instances of engines where the same thing could be said. I mean, if you own a wrx or sti, you can expect to replace to repair the engine by the 60k mark if you're beating on it.

 

[DeluxeStang]

What evidence do you have to say EVs don’t last that long? And where do you get 100k miles to 80%? Battery warranties are typically 100k to 80% not actual battery life…. There are 10+ year old Teslas on the road with over 90% original capacity remaining.

Here is real world data to back up my 500K mile statement. Teslas internal battery testing hit 500k miles on a battery with over 80% capacity remaining.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/amp/

And here is info on Teslas new CHEAPER 4680 battery potentially achieving 2M miles.

https://electrek.co/2020/10/18/tesla-battery-test-results-over-2-million-miles/amp/

And to top it off, you act like a battery is instantly unusable after you hit 80%. Where do you get that idea? It just means you will get 80% the range you would have got new. Very comparable to an equivalent age ICE vehicle with worsening MPG over time don’t you think?

Also, 99.99% of people who own vehicles do NOT rebuild engines or swap engines. They scrap the car and get another

Exactly, if Tesla can make a battery pack that lasts 500k or more, imagine how long a brand like Ford, or Toyota, who have higher quality standards can make it last.

The battery going to 80% is like losing fuel tank capacity on an ICE. Or if the fuel economy goes down. I had a coworker tell me this week that his Chevy Cruze with 350something thousand miles doesn't get as good fuel economy as it did years ago, so I agree it can happen to an ICE. And you are right, it's not unusable - it's just that it happens too soon on EVs. I can't remember where exactly I read it. C&D or one of those reviewed a Tesla and talked about the battery degrading exactly enough to avoid hitting a warranty claim, but still degrading more quickly than they would like.

I do think some of my attitude is bias-driven I will give you that. I think engines that use explosions are cool, and motors that are mostly silent do not seem cool to me. I remember there was a local radio show that talked about cylinder index. The idea being the more cylinders you own the more you can brag. I still subscribe to that way of thinking, at least to some extent.

There's nothing wrong with an electric or hybrid. You should buy what you like. Don't worry about what I think.

I'm going to stop junking up this thread for the people that actually want hybrid or electric.

I don't hate ICE either, our 2017 explorer has one of the most durable engines Ford ever designed, the 3.5 duratec v6, fantastic engine. Earlier models had some issues with internalized water pumps junking the motors, but more modern duratec 3.5s don't really seem to have that issue that often, if at all. So I see the appeal of ICE, I really do, but long term, hybrids and evs have proven to be more robust, and require fewer repairs. That's just the facts man.

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