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lcbrownz

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umm, actually, it's VERY efficient. This is the biggest reasons why EVs get the mileage they do. They turn the kinetic energy of the car back into stored electrical energy, so that's it's ready to be used again.

Now, performance cars...aka, those that people will want to use on a race track (circuit track, not a drag strip) will probably need/want capacitors vs just batteries as they will be able to handle the inrush current even better, and be better able to send it back to the motor as you come out of the turn.

You will also have regular brakes, which can be used to supplement the regenerative braking.
NASCAR is reportedly currently looking to set up its own electric racing series and a demonstration race will be held on February 5 at the 2023 Busch Clash in Los Angeles. The electric NASCAR racers will reportedly run on a 900-volt architecture and have in excess of 1,000 horsepower thanks to a trio of electric motors - we can also infer from this that the vehicles will be all-wheel drive.
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9secondko

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umm, actually, it's VERY efficient. This is the biggest reasons why EVs get the mileage they do. They turn the kinetic energy of the car back into stored electrical energy, so that's it's ready to be used again.

Now, performance cars...aka, those that people will want to use on a race track (circuit track, not a drag strip) will probably need/want capacitors vs just batteries as they will be able to handle the inrush current even better, and be better able to send it back to the motor as you come out of the turn.

You will also have regular brakes, which can be used to supplement the regenerative braking.
it’s one way of getting a little spent power back. It’s recovering a percentage of kinetic (movement/inertia) energy(reportedly up to 70%), but that’s not equitable to battery percentage or range percentage (about 10-15% of actual range - and this only happens if creating a lot of inertia driving a round town. Nothing really on the highway). there are other ways that make sense that would be more productive. Yet they haven’t been put into action. Not sure if it’s too expensive or difficult or if everyone is just happy with the status quo. Automakers don’t like to improve things when they don’t have to. Going EV isn’t changing that unfortunately.

the point is, you don’t need one pedal and you don’t need to change what people intuitively know just because your motor is electric. Regenerative breaking has some benefit. But it’s not the end all by any means, nor is it VERY efficient - that’s only if you go by reporting or regained kinetic energy. Not by actual range gained - though it gains some. It’s a nice little option. Better to see developments with better performance that don’t involve turning a car into an RC toy.

this is fine for a generic EV. But back to topic, we are talking MUSTANG. Not grocery getter or taxi. Ford is no doubt experimenting even now on manual shifting, better ways of actively recharging, etc. just because the Mustang looks to end up electric doesn’t mean it’s going to be the same as everything else. The Mustang’s purpose is not the same,it’s spirit is not the same, and people don’t buy it for the same reasons. It needs to be an EV HOT ROD when that time comes. I believe it will be and it will be differentiated in a number of ways.
 
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Stonehauler

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it’s one way of getting a little spent power back. It’s recovering a percentage of kinetic (movement/inertia) energy, but that’s not equitable to battery percentage or range percentage (about 10-15% if creating a lot of inertia driving a rounded town. Nothing really on the highway). there are other ways that make sense that would be more productive. Yet they haven’t been put into action. Not sure if it’s too expensive or difficult or if everyone is just happy with the status quo. Automakers don’t like to improve things when they don’t have to. Going EV isn’t changing that unfortunately.

the point is, you don’t need one pedal and you don’t need to change what people intuitively know just because your motor is electric. Regenerative breaking has some benefit. But it’s not the end all by any means, nor is it VERY efficient - that’s only if you go by reporting or regained kinetic energy. Not by actual range gained - though it gains some. It’s a nice little option. Better to see developments with better performance that don’t involve turning a car into an RC toy.

this is fine for a generic EV. But back to topic, we are talking MUSTANG. Not grocery getter or taxi. Ford is no doubt experimenting even now on manual shifting, better ways of actively recharging, etc. just because the Mustang looks to end up electric doesn’t mean it’s going to be the same as everything else. The Mustang’s purpose is not the same,it’s spirit is not the same, and people don’t buy it for the same reasons. It needs to be an EV HOT ROD when that time comes. I believe it will be and it will be differentiated in a number of ways.
From JD Power
" In some cases, the latest regenerative braking systems can recover up to 70% of the kinetic energy otherwise lost during braking. "

So a lot more than your 10-15 percent.

A significant amount of fuel (energy) is consumed when you accelerate. You are taking chemical energy (battery or petrol) and using that to raise the kinetic energy of the vehicle. Assuming a standing start, you go from Energy (kinetic) of 0 (1/2)*Mass of vehicle*Velocity^2) to whatever the final energy level is. Double the mass, double the amount of energy consumed assuming a 100 percent efficient process). Energy needs to up as a square function of the velocity. This is the energy you can recover up to 70 percent of.

The other reason you burn fuel is to overcome wind resistance. Wind resistance is a cube function, not a square function, so when you go from 30 mph to 60 mph, the energy consumed is 8 times at 60 what it is at 30 (rolling resistance is fairly constant) This is why your highway mileage can improve so much just be slowing down 5 mph.
75^3 is almost double 60^3, so you are using almost 2x the power
From 65 to 70, you are increasing your power needs by almost 25 percent (24.8988)
No matter what energy source/motive source pairing you use, this will always be the case. This is why auto manufacturers want to get their cars' Coefficient of Drag down as much as possible, because this is where you make significant increases in highway range without needing to add more battery.

So when you drive your car around town at slower speeds, in stop and go rush hour, on a street with lots of stoplights, etc...this is where EVs will really shine. Since a vast majority of people spend time is this type of traffic, this is where it's going to have a huge impact on energy consumption. It's why City MPGe is greater than highway MPGe (when operating in electric only mode). They are able to recover that energy more effectively. Electrics still have a greater MPGe Highway because unlike the ICE, you are not tossing away 66 percent or more of your energy out the tailpipe and radiators as heat.

Capacitors can be used to improve regenerative braking energy recovery as they are able to absorb the energy much easier and without losing as much to heat (batteries heat up when being charged) They are also able to rapidly supply energy back to the motor as well. This is why I think that high performance cars will eventually employ both a battery, and a capacitor bank

So yes, regenerative breaking is absolutely worth it, both on and off the track.
 


BoostRabbitGT

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Ah well. My future plans in life are still up in the air any way. AWD may not be a dealbreaker for me, who knows?
 

9secondko

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From JD Power
" In some cases, the latest regenerative braking systems can recover up to 70% of the kinetic energy otherwise lost during braking. "

So a lot more than your 10-15 percent.

A significant amount of fuel (energy) is consumed when you accelerate. You are taking chemical energy (battery or petrol) and using that to raise the kinetic energy of the vehicle. Assuming a standing start, you go from Energy (kinetic) of 0 (1/2)*Mass of vehicle*Velocity^2) to whatever the final energy level is. Double the mass, double the amount of energy consumed assuming a 100 percent efficient process). Energy needs to up as a square function of the velocity. This is the energy you can recover up to 70 percent of.

The other reason you burn fuel is to overcome wind resistance. Wind resistance is a cube function, not a square function, so when you go from 30 mph to 60 mph, the energy consumed is 8 times at 60 what it is at 30 (rolling resistance is fairly constant) This is why your highway mileage can improve so much just be slowing down 5 mph.
75^3 is almost double 60^3, so you are using almost 2x the power
From 65 to 70, you are increasing your power needs by almost 25 percent (24.8988)
No matter what energy source/motive source pairing you use, this will always be the case. This is why auto manufacturers want to get their cars' Coefficient of Drag down as much as possible, because this is where you make significant increases in highway range without needing to add more battery.

So when you drive your car around town at slower speeds, in stop and go rush hour, on a street with lots of stoplights, etc...this is where EVs will really shine. Since a vast majority of people spend time is this type of traffic, this is where it's going to have a huge impact on energy consumption. It's why City MPGe is greater than highway MPGe (when operating in electric only mode). They are able to recover that energy more effectively. Electrics still have a greater MPGe Highway because unlike the ICE, you are not tossing away 66 percent or more of your energy out the tailpipe and radiators as heat.

Capacitors can be used to improve regenerative braking energy recovery as they are able to absorb the energy much easier and without losing as much to heat (batteries heat up when being charged) They are also able to rapidly supply energy back to the motor as well. This is why I think that high performance cars will eventually employ both a battery, and a capacitor bank

So yes, regenerative breaking is absolutely worth it, both on and off the track.
You quoted exactly what I referred to - kinetic energy. It sounds great to say that up to 70% of kinetic energy I’d recaptured. But that only translates to 10-15% of range. You aren’t recharging 70% of your battery my man. It’s a choice star that doesnt corrrelate to real world benefit. That’s where I said you do gain a bit, but it’s not this huge deal not “VERY efficient.”

there will be better ways of providing energy on the go that have much better real world impact. This is just the “stone ages” so to speak of EV tech. Right now, it’s one idea that everyone has copied from each other. And it’s… ok I guess.
 

zackmd1

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You quoted exactly what I referred to - kinetic energy. It sounds great to say that up to 70% of kinetic energy I’d recaptured. But that only translates to 10-15% of range. You aren’t recharging 70% of your battery my man. It’s a choice star that doesnt corrrelate to real world benefit. That’s where I said you do gain a bit, but it’s not this huge deal not “VERY efficient.”

there will be better ways of providing energy on the go that have much better real world impact. This is just the “stone ages” so to speak of EV tech. Right now, it’s one idea that everyone has copied from each other. And it’s… ok I guess.
How about not having to change brake pads for 100-150k miles? Little to no brake dust, etc…. That real world enough?

Also, the charge rate is quite significant. What limits it is the battery’s ability to accept the energy. That’s also why if a battery is charged to near its maximum capacity, regen braking will not be as strong until the battery drops below a certain threshold.

Again though, it’s not a drastic change in driving habits…. But you won’t listen to that and instead will insist on complaining about something you have yet to experience…
 

9secondko

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How about not having to change brake pads for 100-150k miles? Little to no brake dust, etc…. That real world enough?

Also, the charge rate is quite significant. What limits it is the battery’s ability to accept the energy. That’s also why if a battery is charged to near its maximum capacity, regen braking will not be as strong until the battery drops below a certain threshold.

Again though, it’s not a drastic change in driving habits…. But you won’t listen to that and instead will insist on complaining about something you have yet to experience…
nice goalpost shift.
When you miss the point, I guess there’s nothing left to do. So… good job I guess.

I’ve already stated that it’s a decent option. And that’s what it should be - an option. It doesn’t add a whole lot to the equation, especially at the expense of current muscle memory, but it adds a bit and enough to justify continuing as an option.
 
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Stonehauler

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You quoted exactly what I referred to - kinetic energy. It sounds great to say that up to 70% of kinetic energy I’d recaptured. But that only translates to 10-15% of range. You aren’t recharging 70% of your battery my man. It’s a choice star that doesnt corrrelate to real world benefit. That’s where I said you do gain a bit, but it’s not this huge deal not “VERY efficient.”

there will be better ways of providing energy on the go that have much better real world impact. This is just the “stone ages” so to speak of EV tech. Right now, it’s one idea that everyone has copied from each other. And it’s… ok I guess.
if you read my post, you would know I said you don't get the energy lost to wind resistance back, but what you do re-capture is a lot of the energy you use to start up, which is big in stop and go traffic.

EVs are also a lot more energy efficient once the energy is stored in the vehicle (gas in the tank or charge in the battery). ICEs are only about 1/3 efficient at their best. Motors are much more efficient (some in the mid 90s)
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