PP Question

[shubox56]

Thanks, DeeDub. Any issues down in the weeds? Roads are a PITA around here, so I'm thinking through this option carefully (my M.O.).

I will also be running staggered front and back tires. Researching combos since I prefer more of an old school drag look.

This is moving towards my style:

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[DeeDub SC]

Thanks, DeeDub. Any issues down in the weeds? Roads are a PITA around here, so I'm thinking through this option carefully (my M.O.).

I will also be running staggered front and back tires. Researching combos since I prefer more of an old school drag look.

This is moving towards my style:

shubox56: I noted no deterioration in the ride quality with the Eibach suspension change. My wife didn't either, so that says something! I keep looking at replacement wheels but really can't find any that look THAT much better, so why spend the $'s. I did add tinted windows, like you example here and I think that helps the "stealth" look some too. Won't sneak up on anyone with those beefy Hoosiers though! :-)

 

[shubox56]

Beefy old school drag with front runners is my cup of tea. LOVE IT!

 

[shubox56]

The more I think about it, the more I want to stick with my old-school attitude. Instead of big wheels wrapped in thin rubber, I keep gravitating toward what I grew up with — smaller rims and more sidewall. I’ve always liked the staggered “big and little” look, with pizza cutters up front, even if it’s not the most ideal setup. I’ve lived with that style on rough roads before, so I know what to expect.

The challenge is that keeping the wheels smaller in diameter might not play well with Brembo brakes. Right now I’m considering 17x10 rears and 18x5 fronts, specifically the Weld Laguna wheels. I believe the fronts would clear the Brembos, but the rears may force me to step up to 18s. I’m trying to track down pictures of the 18x10s paired with Brembos to see how they fit.

Whatever wheel and tire combo I choose, I need to be sure it allows me to lower the car without street-driving complications. On the street, I’d likely run Mickey Thompson Sportsman SR tires, just like I did on my ’56 Chevy. For the track, I’d swap them out for Mickey Thompson ETs. Still weighing all of this before I walk into a dealership to hunt for deals.

 

[DarkMatterGrey]

There are some things on the S650 GT’s that are hard to change (electronically and/or mechanically), which limits your aftermarket or after purchase options vs. older Mustangs (S550 specifically):

1) oil temp on all S650’s are inferred (there’s no actual/physical sensor). While you can add an aftermarket or Ford Performance oil cooler, the inferred temp at least at this point cannot be changed. So if you run the car hard, you run a greater risk of the car going into limp mode. PP’s and Dark Horses take into account the oil cooler so can be run harder.

2) PP (and Dark Horse) rear wheels are larger diameter than standard and have less revolutions per mile. So you may need to recalibrate if you take a non PP car and add PP size wheels and tires. On S550’s you could buy a ProCal tuner from Ford to change gear ratios and tire diameters. Not sure how readily you can do that now, I’ve heard maybe through ForScan, for ratios and diameters that are available from Ford, possibly also through dealer using official Ford tools.

3) you cannot add Ford’s active exhaust to the computer. If you want an active exhaust later, there are aftermarket options not tied to the computer. I didn’t opt for the active exhaust even knowing this, but I run a Roush axle back. I haven’t (yet) done an X or H pipe since on the S650’s they don’t make much more power (surprisingly H more than X) vs. the amount of neighbor hater noise.

4) you can readily add the 6 pot front Brembo’s, but not as easy for the rear 4 pot Brembo’s and drift brake along with the different in-cabin console for the drift lever. If larger (and heavier) brakes are important to you get the PP or Dark Horse (which have upgraded front rotors over the PP). Note some draggys (straight line guys) don’t like the heavier brakes and have upgraded to lighter options.

5) Being a straight line guy and considering a manual, while you get 3.55’s standard (vs. 3.15 on the auto) and can order 3.73’s (PP, Dark Horse), going with 4.10 (seems to be the preferred option) or 4.56 mechanically may be out of reach programmatically. If the diff ratio is important to you get the PP or Dark Horse (they’re Torsen vs clutch based limited slip as well).

6) they do make Tremec kits for the S550 (the Magnum XL, which is way stronger than the 3160 in the Dark Horse), so while it’s probably going to be possible mechanically, you may be limited electronically at least for now. If the manual transmission is important to you, get the Dark Horse for no other reason. The manual Getrag in the standard or PP is fine for daily shifting, the Dark Horse is better for harder driving.

7) Early S650’s had no start/stop buttons and some (like me) had to pay gas guzzler tax. That “option” (it’s more forced now) is only available on the Dark Horse.

8) the handling package is only available on the Dark Horse and Ford only builds them March through October because the tires cannot be stored in the cold and since the car final assembly is near Detroit will not risk the damage during shipment. Being a straight line guy, this may not be as important to you. The wheels are basically an inch wider than the PP wheels.

9) you can add the K brace and strut tower brace to a non PP and non Dark Horse GT, but there’s some more hidden bracing on the PP’s that are harder to add. The K brace can stay but not the strut tower to tower brace with a super charger.

10) gas options are your limiting factor for a tune, but the car runs best on either 93 or E30 stock. So much so, there’s no appreciable benefit to a tune unless you get the A10 (automatic). Note the extra 15 HP of the Dark Horse can be tuned back in to PP or stock GT’s (look up torque management, which I believe is to keep both throttle bodies open at WOT). Get a tune if you really want ghost cam, higher redline (some going up to 9000 RPM), have access to better fuel options, don’t care about voiding your warranty, want better forced induction options than what’s available through Ford Performance regardless of stock GT, PP or Dark Horse.

11) the stock cold air dual throttle body system is very effective. There’s not much power left on the table given how much it costs to enable them (LTH, CAI, etc.) vs. just get a forced induction system. If you go crazy and blow your engine, Ford Performance does make stronger short and long block options. Look up Papini Racing on Facebook for his analysis on Dark Horse vs. standard GT vs. Ford Performance engine options.

12) the owners manual does recommend getting a catch can for track use. If nothing else, it will help retain octane. Ford Performance does make dual PCV and CCV but they’re expensive. You should only need a PCV side, which is less than 1/3 the price of the Ford Performance option. These do not come on any S650 from the factory.

Hope this helps on deciding your starting platform (standard GT vs. PP vs. Dark Horse).

I can’t help if you decide on other platforms, like a vette, which now appear to have aftermarket manual option.

I encourage others to correct or add to this list.

 

[shubox56]

Thank you, DarkMatter! That was a thoughtful write-up and it’s given me plenty to consider. Since I’m new to the Mustang world, I’ll need to dig into each of your points further. My vision is mostly a street-driven, drag-inspired hot rod with the occasional trip to the track (maybe annually). It’s not about chasing faster times, but more about enjoying the experience and capturing the look; staggered big-and-skinny wheels rather than trying to be the quickest guy around.

On the wheel and brake setup, do you think 18x10 rears and 18x5 fronts with 305s out back would work with minimal adjustments alongside the Brembos? And from what you’ve said, it sounds like you may be leaning toward recommending the PP package, at least in part for the cooling benefits, among other considerations.

 

[DarkMatterGrey]

Thank you, DarkMatter! That was a thoughtful write-up and it’s given me plenty to consider. Since I’m new to the Mustang world, I’ll need to dig into each of your points further. My vision is mostly a street-driven, drag-inspired hot rod with the occasional trip to the track (maybe annually). It’s not about chasing faster times, but more about enjoying the experience and capturing the look; staggered big-and-skinny wheels rather than trying to be the quickest guy around.

On the wheel and brake setup, do you think 18x10 rears and 18x5 fronts with 305s out back would work with minimal adjustments alongside the Brembos? And from what you’ve said, it sounds like you may be leaning toward recommending the PP package, at least in part for the cooling benefits, among other considerations.

The standard GT comes with the smaller 4 pot Brembos in the front, which fit with an 18” wheel. The rears are smaller calipers (not Brembos) so that won’t be a problem either.

However in the front, I’m pretty sure you’d need 19” front to clear the big 6 pot Brembos if you get the Brembo brake package on a standard GT or get the PP or the Dark Horse (the difference in the Dark Horse are upgraded rotors as well) unless you upgrade to a smaller rotor/caliper package for drag racing. In the rear, those come with two smaller calipers per side, one of which is a 4 pot Brembo. I’m pretty sure 18” wheel would fit, but I’ll have to let others chime in for sure.

I’m assuming when you say track, you mean drag strip, not autocross or the like. With that I don’t see how you’d benefit from PP or big Brembos. It’s hopefully only a 10 second race so I don’t think you’d hit limp home mode because of high oil temps. That’s also where an automatic would be better since they’re quicker, especially as AZ Ryan said, if you get the optional 3.55 (in lieu of the standard 3.15). On the flip side, the Tremec of the Dark Horse takes power shifting a lot better than the Getrag in the standard GT or PP models. The manuals come with line lock and launch mode. I think the autos come with only one of those (I don’t have one so I don’t know).

The good thing is about a Mustang is you can really make a drag racer or autox car, but not necessarily both at the same time. There’s other aftermarket kits for them as well, such as Steeda Stop the Hop kits, for street, drag, or track. And if you ever upgrade to forced induction, axle shafts are the first to go SNAP.

I’m just trying to help marry the research I’ve done on the S650 platform to figure out what I ultimately want to do with mine (vs. my sons S550, which is way easier to change things electronically and therefore mechanically), to what your goals are. And therefore help you pick the right platform to start with.

There’s a bunch of Forced as well as Natural induction drag racer people in here, maybe they can chime in. You can also look around the forums for some of their posts and articles.

Edit: for me I do GT (grand touring). I live in Phoenix AZ area, so while my car would benefit from oil cooling, I like to hit the mountainous cooler areas of northern AZ and carry a full size spare in the trunk so I could do a 5 tire rotation (I actually have 6 OEM tires/wheels) and can readily replace a flat. So staggered 19” aren’t for me. But a manual definitely is. Not out for quickest nor better MPG that you’d get with an automatic.

 

[MidwayJ]

Great information!

1) oil temp on all S650’s are inferred (there’s no actual/physical sensor). While you can add an aftermarket or Ford Performance oil cooler, the inferred temp at least at this point cannot be changed. So if you run the car hard, you run a greater risk of the car going into limp mode.

My S550 has no oil cooler. The only time the oil temps have gotten hot enough for me to worry about this happening was a track day with temps in the low 90s.

2) PP (and Dark Horse) rear wheels are larger diameter than standard and have less revolutions per mile. So you may need to recalibrate if you take a non PP car and add PP size wheels and tires. On S550’s you could buy a ProCal tuner from Ford to change gear ratios and tire diameters.

I put PP sizes on my '15 non PP and smaller diameter than stock tires on my '19. Didn't even know about the ProCal tuner. I never bothered, but many recalibrated their S550s using ForsCan. Not sure if it can be done with the S650.

3) you cannot add Ford’s active exhaust to the computer.

Was that possible with the S550?

5) Being a straight line guy and considering a manual, while you get 3.55’s standard (vs. 3.15 on the auto) and can order 3.73’s (PP, Dark Horse), going with 4.10 (seems to be the preferred option) or 4.56 mechanically may be out of reach programmatically. If the diff ratio is important to you get the PP or Dark Horse (they’re Torsen vs clutch based limited slip as well).

Another advantage of the Dark Horse is the Tremec gear ratios are lower than the MT82, making it feel less like the differential should be changed. It's unfortunate that swapping in a 4.10 or 4.56 isn't supported.

11) the stock cold air dual throttle body system is very effective. There’s not much power left on the table given how much it costs to enable them (LTH, CAI, etc.) vs. just get a forced induction system.

This is also true with the S550. Catless LTH and E85 with a tune can get you a noticeable HP bump but nothing like boost.

 

[DarkMatterGrey]

My S550 has no oil cooler. The only time the oil temps have gotten hot enough for me to worry about this happening was a track day with temps in the low 90s.

I'm pretty sure yours does if it's a GT, part number FR3Z-6A642-A. While not ideal, since it's an air-to-water cooler, it does its job (as long as it doesn't leak). But that's not the problem with the S650. While they do make an oil cooler kit for the S650 part number M6642M50D, which will cool the oil, it will not change the inferred oil temperature. So a hard day at the track could still result in the car going into limp mode even with cooler oil. Thus the need for Dark Horse or PP GT to get a bump in the inferred temperature vs. the actual temperature, which may not be needed for the OP occasional drag use.

I put PP sizes on my '15 non PP and smaller diameter than stock tires on my '19. Didn't even know about the ProCal tuner. I never bothered, but many recalibrated their S550s using ForsCan. Not sure if it can be done with the S650.

I'm somewhat sure about Ford Procal not being available for the S650 GT (only the EcoBoost). I'm pretty sure that the Livernois Engineering equivalent is not available for the S650 at all. I'm not sure what tuners can or do change. Lastly, I'm definitely not sure about Forscan for the S650. Last I saw some things do work even though Forscan isn't (or wasn't?) supported (fully?) for the S650. I do recall reading that with either Forscan or the Ford Dealer tool (FDRS?), they can change to options the car can come with. But if the diameters are close enough, it should only be a couple percentage points from stock. So hopefully only the speedometer/odometer are off by a little bit. Maybe at some point it could affect other wheel speed related alarms, and throw off not only the speedo/odo, but traction control. This to me is an open question and I'm not willing to try on my daily. Hoping others could chime in here for the OP to help make platform decisions.

Was that possible with the S550?

TBH, IDK. The only experience I have with the S550 is limited to my 2022 Ecoboost, that was wrecked fixed, and traded in on my Non-active 2024 GT and my son's 2022 GT/CS with Active Exhaust. I am one of the few NOT Active Exhaust fans.

Another advantage of the Dark Horse is the Tremec gear ratios are lower than the MT82, making it feel less like the differential should be changed. It's unfortunate that swapping in a 4.10 or 4.56 isn't supported.

Although the Tremec already comes with 3.73, which is an option in the GT (at least via PP), but yeah we're back to mechnically vs. electronically available on those additional even more drag friendly gear ratios. So I'd need someone to chime in to see if it can be done via Forscan or the Ford tool set (FDRS?).

This is also true with the S550. Catless LTH and E85 with a tune can get you a noticeable HP bump but nothing like boost.

Yep, but the S650 especially with the manual, in my mind there's not a big enough improvement to justify all the effort, cost, and risk now that the computer has been unlocked. And being in AZ, E85 (even 93) is hard to procure. Starting point on the S550 is as low as 450 HP, the S650 is already at least 30 HP higher (as long as you run 93).

Great information!

Thanks, but I still don't know thus my hope that others would comment on what's available electronically to be able to unlock what's available mechanically so the OP can make a platform choice. I'm still stuck in the wait and see mode, so I am taking no big swings, but the S550 definitely has more ability to change things up vs. the S650. At least for now.

 

[shubox56]

Truly an exercise of mental gymnastics. After thinking this through, I think this list of PP upgrades is worth the $5000+.

- Brembo 6‑piston front brakes
- Larger rotors
- Torsen limited‑slip differential
- Upgraded suspension tuning
- Additional chassis bracing
- Larger radiator
- Engine oil cooler
- Rear spoiler

Maybe some of this is overkill for the street, but then again, maybe not.

That said, I may not get the sidewall I wanted, but I still want a drag style wheel like the Weld Laguna. This if they look good in person. Anyone know?

I would also like to lower the car IF it's manageable on the street.

If the above holds true, I'll patiently look for a deal to good to pass up.

I truly appreciate everything laid out above; all those who contributed. I'm going to walk through everything said a number of times before making my final decision.

 

[shubox56]

 

[86pagt]

BMR or Steeda min-drop springs give a great drop for the street without impacting ride as both are just a little firmer than the factory pp springs…

 

[shubox56]

BMR or Steeda min-drop springs give a great drop for the street without impacting ride as both are just a little firmer than the factory pp springs…

Thank you!

 

[shubox56]

I found some reasonable deals out of state, 2024 model year with PP. Is there any reason why I should say focused on 2025 versus 2024? Was the 2024 model year more problematic being a transition to a new platform?

 

[wesg79]

I went PP 301a with active exhaust, will never track is but torsen, the oil cooler, Brakes and wider tires were wants. with the empolyee pricing it was pretty much the same as a non PP back in September also with 301a and active exhaust

MSRP was 67k paid 60k (CAD)

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