S650 production ending in 2028 - according to new union contract

[horned-toad]

Ford loses something like 30,000 on every Mach-E it sells. Not 'paper loss' REAL loss. They can't sell any if they actually charged labor+materials+overhead.

I'm no fan of self driving, but sued for what exactly? 'False advertising'? How does a recall (and Tesla are not unique to recalls) indicate false advertising?

clearly you haven't been paying attention. The car can't remotely self-drive - it gets confused routinely and even deliberately tries to kill the occupants. It's been documented in spades.

most the fault is the moron at the wheel who deliberately chose to cleanse the gene pool in support of laziness

What does this mean?

When the driver decides he's going to watch a video or sleep instead of driving, his car does thing like hit jersey barriers head-on, plow into firetrucks and police cars on the side of the road, and even niftier, plow under semi-trucks and sheers their head clean off.

Anyone who believes Tesla's "full autonomous driving" is real is dumber than dirt. And yes it's been flagrantly false advertising since the very first day he mouthed the words. And he damn well knows it.

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[Gregs24]

Ford loses something like 30,000 on every Mach-E it sells. Not 'paper loss' REAL loss. They can't sell any if they actually charged labor+materials+overhead.

Of course they did. Ford themselves explained that it is because the company loss is caused by future R&D projects and development costs for EV's. Not sure why that is a surprise? If you enter new markets you inevitably have costs before you sell a single product. Most people understand this who own a business.

 

[Gregs24]

clearly you haven't been paying attention. The car can't remotely self-drive - it gets confused routinely and even deliberately tries to kill the occupants. It's been documented in spades.


When the driver decides he's going to watch a video or sleep instead of driving, his car does thing like hit jersey barriers head-on, plow into firetrucks and police cars on the side of the road, and even niftier, plow under semi-trucks and sheers their head clean off.

Anyone who believes Tesla's "full autonomous driving" is real is dumber than dirt. And yes it's been flagrantly false advertising since the very first day he mouthed the words. And he damn well knows it.

I am well aware how 'self driving' is a misnomer currently - also the SAE definitions.

I do not think SAE 3 to 5 are a good idea.

 

[Zig]

Of course they did. Ford themselves explained that it is because the company loss is caused by future R&D projects and development costs for EV's. Not sure why that is a surprise? If you enter new markets you inevitably have costs before you sell a single product. Most people understand this who own a business.

DARPA

 

[Gregs24]

DARPA

??????

 

[IceGamer]

??????

Please just stop answering, he is clearly not able or not interested in a fact driven conversation. Don't feed the troll... Besides, everytime someone posts here I get a notification and I hope it's some meaningful content regarding the S650 lifespan...

 

[9secondko]

R&D costs money before you sell a single product.

Ford is making money on every car it sells (they are not stupid) and those sales chip away at the R&D costs over time. If you get it right then you make a profit overall by the time you stop making the car, if you don't you lose money on that product. Car makers have done both and being an EV or not doesn't change this. What DOES change it is that EV's are a growth market and ICE is a shrinking market, I know which I would invest in!

not making a direct profit on any EVs. No one is except Tesla. Two years is an acceptable loss leader situation. But when you still can’t figure a way to profit, it’s a rough deal. Ford is using ICE vehicles with jacked up prices as a sponge to soak up some of the loss. But that gets old and is unsustainable - especially for a company that was hurting not too long ago.

EVs are OK. It’s good to have the option for scenarios where they make sense. But there are inherent problems too - both for manufacturers and consumers.

but what once seemed like a blue ocean turned out to be shallow waters.

 

[Gregs24]

not making a direct profit on any EVs. No one is except Tesla. Two years is an acceptable loss leader situation. But when you still can’t figure a way to profit, it’s a rough deal. Ford is using ICE vehicles with jacked up prices as a sponge to soak up some of the loss. But that gets old and is unsustainable - especially for a company that was hurting not too long ago.

EVs are OK. It’s good to have the option for scenarios where they make sense. But there are inherent problems too - both for manufacturers and consumers.

but what once seemed like a blue ocean turned out to be shallow waters.

It took Tesla 10 years to make a profit. It takes 3 or 4 years to bring a car to market. Your 2 year suggestion is way out.

The legacy car makers do have the advantage of existing sales / profit to use for R&D compared to start-ups, but that is just how it works

 

[Zig]

It took Tesla 10 years to make a profit. It takes 3 or 4 years to bring a car to market. Your 2 year suggestion is way out.

The legacy car makers do have the advantage of existing sales / profit to use for R&D compared to start-ups, but that is just how it works

Sounds like the perfect opportunity to move this discussion over here:

https://www.mustang7g.com/forums/threads/let’s-talk-about-evs.159523/

 

[9secondko]

It took Tesla 10 years to make a profit. It takes 3 or 4 years to bring a car to market. Your 2 year suggestion is way out.

The legacy car makers do have the advantage of existing sales / profit to use for R&D compared to start-ups, but that is just how it works

Yes. But that’s because they were pioneering a market that almost didn’t exist.

but Ford is actually CUTTING EV production. The f series Lightning is being cut back by 50%. That’s crazy.

Ford pulling back in this is a big deal.
The EV movement is s strain on traditional automakers - especially when Chinese suppliers are the ones making the easy money by licensing their battery plans. Ford is not only paying for the IP, they’re footing the bill for manufacturing. It’s not a great business until they can develop tech of their own - which is difficult because so much of the foundational stuff is patented.

 

[Twin Turbo]

Besides, everytime someone posts here I get a notification and I hope it's some meaningful content regarding the S650 lifespan...

Absolutely this!

Every thread on the future of the Mustang now ends in an EV battle from both sides. It used to be that such threads would have input from insiders that could give us snippets of information about future Mustang models. Even if such individuals were still able to provide that info, it now gets lost in EV noise. Its not even new noise. Just noise.

It does my head in.

 

[Gregs24]

As Ford have stated that all of their vehicles will be capable of zero emissions running by 2026 in Europe, we will either get a hybrid Mustang or no Mustang!

 

[horned-toad]

As Ford have stated that all of their vehicles will be capable of zero emissions running by 2026 in Europe

as the legal "mandate" evaporates, so will the timeline. This is all just pie-in-sky virtue signalling. Not to say decisions toward this goal haven't been made, but if the business is going to fail in the face of "mandates" or other nonsense, they will gladly spend the money to sue the gov't and/or get waivers. Money is the only thing that matters.

 

[9secondko]

as the legal "mandate" evaporates, so will the timeline. This is all just pie-in-sky virtue signalling. Not to say decisions toward this goal haven't been made, but if the business is going to fail in the face of "mandates" or other nonsense, they will gladly spend the money to sue the gov't and/or get waivers. Money is the only thing that matters.

this.
Ultimately automakers have been forced into something they weren’t prepared for yet. The ev move is something that everyone has been wanting to do, but not in an either/ or kind of market. More of another transportation option. And only when they can get there responsibly.

so much is wrong about it now. That’s why there are arguments. From crippling lack of infrastructure to inconvenience with charge times, etc. to major environmental concerns to repair/replacement costs, to price of entry, to lack of OEM profit/loss, to range anxiety, etc. the whole thing reeks of unpreparedness/market rush. And it’s due to political push.

it’s great to see continued EV development. But not at the cost of everything else. And at the very least, hydrogen should be invested in at least as much as electric, since there is zero ill effects. But it takes investment to build infrastructure - just like electric. It seems the only company that has actually somewhat prepared over time is Tesla with their charging network and solar business. And yet the powers that be seems to love harassing them.

and here we are, Mustang fans. Sometime we rejoice because we get a killer design or a radical performance monster. And it’s not just any car that looks good as it destroys the competition. It’s OUR car. A beast that, for whatever reason, has imprinted itself on our soul.

but we are at a paradigm shift. The storied V8 engine that burbles with primal instinct and sings rhe songs of enthusiast dreams at high rpm’s with gentle vibrations reminding us that we aren’t driving some grocery getter, but rather riding atop a fire breathing dragon, is threatened with extinction. It’s something we first heard about with horror prior to the introduction of the s550. Yet time and repetition has dulled the reaction somewhat.

the Mustang has been the stuff of dreams and here in America, we have been blessed to live that dream. It’s the American way. If you can dream it, you can do it. Of course there are changes. The 1970s had drastic changes to help with the pollution problem and things have gotten much better. What was it once a reliance on anemic power output to address these matters has been met with far more efficient engines with more power than the folks back then could have ever dreamed - and even better soundtracks to boot, despite exhaust and emissions changes. Where there was a will, there was a way. But there is more to do.

With electric, we get excited about the possibilities of the Mustang outperforming a model S. We like the idea of no exhaust emissions as well as the design possibilities that open up.
But we shudder at the thought of losing that iconic voice, the trembling of metal indicating the has awoken and even more so as it breathes fire down the 1320. Where we once could carry a gas can to fill up a car thst ran out of fuel, we are now faced with a severe anxiety on a long trip in uncharted territory

So excuse us for advocating a more excellent way. From the old, half-dead folks in Washington with classic corvettes of their heyday already safely in their garages to the younger control freaks who tell everyone to do one thing while they do another, they might not care, but we sure as heck do and so will the generations ahead. What about our heyday? What about theirs? These are people who do t have some old fond memories to look back on while American staples are taken from them

That’s why we advocate for continued ICE development, whether that be fossil fuels or hydrogen. And hydrogen deserves at least as much research and development as electric did and does. And it can be a much cleaner solution all around. Not only for manufacturing emissions, but power grid infrastructure, landfill contamination, and takes care of fires that can’t be put out. A small starter battery is one thing. A battery that is half the size of your car right underneath you is quite another.

and not only that, you get to keep the iconic soundtrack and the feeling of something alive all around you. It’s a win-win.

so bear with us when we bemoan the cons of an all-in electric paradigm shift. We get there are some benefits, but we are also too aware of the very real downsides.

this is the MUSTANG for crying out loud. We say these things on a lowly forum of all places not just to vent or argue or yell at a hopeless void. We share our hearts and thoughts in the hopes of connecting with similar hearts and minds in a place we gather to share love for our favorite sporty car, love that sometimes is complementary and sometimes critical, but ultimately with the goal of seeing this car be everything it should.

Ford Motor Compsny is a part of this forum as well. We aren’t blind. And maybe, just maybe, we have hopes that the company that gave us the assembly line can step into the midst of this mess and see things to a brighter future than the barrel we are helplessly forced to see our beloved steed staring down, wether that’s getting turned into something other than a sports car or having its soul replaced.

so we talk. We post. We share ideas. Sometimes these ideas sound like they aren’t related to the mustang because they address the industry as a whole, but that would be a wrong assumption. The industry as a whole gets addressed because it directly affects what happens with the Mustang.

When I have kids, I want to be able to buy them brand new fire breathing dragons disguised as horses when they go to college. And then I want to “borrow” it from time to time.

Thats my dream. And it’s the dream of countless others. Don’t kill it please.

 

[Gregs24]

as the legal "mandate" evaporates, so will the timeline. This is all just pie-in-sky virtue signalling. Not to say decisions toward this goal haven't been made, but if the business is going to fail in the face of "mandates" or other nonsense, they will gladly spend the money to sue the gov't and/or get waivers. Money is the only thing that matters.

The mandate as you refer to it isn't disappearing in Europe. This is a Ford Europe decision.

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