(Dark)Horse Horsepower is lower than we thought?

[Twin Turbo]

I'm English, and European (and pretty much the rest of the world) quote BHP at the crank NOT the wheels.

Well, we used to. Now we seem to have adopted PS as the measurement. PS or PferdStarke is the metric measure of horsepower. It is the equivalent of 98.6% of one HP.

BMW are known to quote a much lower BHP/PS figure than they actually produce.

So you ARE comparing apples to apples. Not sure why you think Euro manufacturers quote wheels horse power, because they don't.

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[Mazman]

All HP ratings in Europe are at the crank as far as I know, no manufacturer report whp and not done so for the last 30+ years I have been into cars.

Then the difference in the unit of HP an BHP is a different topic.

I believe e.g. BMW rate the output at "worst scenario" hence why in most of their performance cars at least the rating is underated.

 

[Zig]

That is 100% correct.

I'm ….

now you did it, you went and woke daddy (reference to parental figure - not literal)…

nothing personal and all in good forum intent. Discussions are good, insults not so much. If a dialog allows others to gain knowledge I would hazard to say mission accomplished.

 

[S650 GT]

All HP ratings in Europe are at the crank as far as I know, no manufacturer report whp and not done so for the last 30+ years I have been into cars. I have no experience in Japanese cars.

Then the difference in the unit of HP an BHP is a different topic.

I believe e.g. BMW rate the output at "worst scenario" hence why in most of their performance cars at least the rating is underated.

I think you misunderstood me. I can also see that you changed your comment, because first you wrote that your Mazda Mx-5 also does not have the same HP as what they advertised. Mazda is not a European car manufacturer. I guess that's why the comment was changed.

What I say is that car manufacturers in Europe, advertise a specific amount of HP, and when you put that car on the dyno it performs exactly as what they advertise. Not ALL European brands do this, but MANY do this, especially BMW, Audi, Volkswagen and Mercedes.

Look at the links below and see the dyno tests and check for yourself.

Worlds First G87 M2 On A Dyno + Weight - YouTube
BMW has the same amount HP on the dyno at the wheels as what they advertise

2021 VW Golf GTI MK8 on the DYNO + 0-240km/h Acceleration | Dyno Results & Exhaust Sound - YouTube
Volkswagen GTI has the same amount HP on the dyno as what they advertise

2022 RS3 8Y Stock Dyno Testing - YouTube
Audi RS3 have the same amount of HP as what they advertise.

And the list goes on.

 

[S650 GT]

I'm English, and European (and pretty much the rest of the world) quote BHP at the crank NOT the wheels.

Well, we used to. Now we seem to have adopted PS as the measurement. PS or PferdStarke is the metric measure of horsepower. It is the equivalent of 98.6% of one HP.

BMW are known to quote a much lower BHP/PS figure than they actually produce.

So you ARE comparing apples to apples. Not sure why you think Euro manufacturers quote wheels horse power, because they don't.

That is correct. All car manufacturers quote BHP.

BUT..

Many European car manufacturers have that amount of BHP what they advertised as WHP!
Look at the links I posted of dyno tests of European vehicles. You can also search to find more yourself if you still don't believe it.

This means that many European brand, use MUCH LOWER BHP numbers on their cars, so the HP matches the power the car really makes on the wheels.

I posted a few links to see for yourself above.

 

[Zig]

Imagine the disappointment when you find that driving in triple digits (120kph) is really only double digits (74.6mph)….

 

[Lastoutlaw_21]

No, your comparison is wrong.

100 km/h is equivalent to 62.14 miles an hour.

The speed is the same, the measurement is not the same.

30 Celcius degrees is the equivalent to 86 Fahrenheit, but the heat temperature is the same.

The difference here is that WHP is measured on the wheels and BHP is measured on the crank.

BMW measures the real power the car makes on the wheels.
Ford measures a power that we can't use.

Both cars are advertised as HP. But US cars don't tell you that their HP is BHP and not the real WHP what every car guy wants to know.
In this case, Ford uses this trick to make things look larger than it actually is.

This is also the reason why so many people are not happy with the dyno numbers on the Dark Horse.

But they say saying what the car engine makes. Bmw is really one of the few that just gives WHP. Neither company is wrong and it's not to trick anyone. But to compare Ford to BMW not even fair lol. 2 different companies, different cars, different objectives and purposes for these cars. If everyone was giving WHP except for Ford, then I see your point. But everyone mostly gives what the engine makes. Bmw just go against that.

DH wise I could care less about the numbers. Numbers on a dyno are just to boost another person's ego to say they have a faster car. Only to get beat in the real world preformance test. Plus that number can change at any given point even with BMW. But it's not fair to compare forced inducton to NA. Two different car styles, different goals, and different experiences aimed at their intended audience. I care about how the car handles, manages power, how fun it is. Bmw lost the fun factor awhile ago. It's quick and fast. It's lacking the fun factor from their older cars.

 

[Mazman]

I think you misunderstood me. I can also see that you changed your comment, because first you wrote that your Mazda Mx-5 also does not have the same HP as what they advertised. Mazda is not a European car manufacturer. I guess that's why the comment was changed.

What I say is that car manufacturers in Europe, advertise a specific amount of HP, and when you put that car on the dyno it performs exactly as what they advertise. Not ALL European brands do this, but MANY do this, especially BMW, Audi, Volkswagen and Mercedes.

Look at the links below and see the dyno tests and check for yourself.

Worlds First G87 M2 On A Dyno + Weight - YouTube
BMW has the same amount HP on the dyno at the wheels as what they advertise

2021 VW Golf GTI MK8 on the DYNO + 0-240km/h Acceleration | Dyno Results & Exhaust Sound - YouTube
Volkswagen GTI has the same amount HP on the dyno as what they advertise

2022 RS3 8Y Stock Dyno Testing - YouTube
Audi RS3 have the same amount of HP as what they advertise.

And the list goes on.

Yeah I changed as I misread it first.

I have seen 100s of dyno-videos so I know what you mean as such and have seen many irl

But the point remains that they do not advertise the figures at the wheel but rather at the crank.
As mentioned they do "understate" the figures as the number given is what the engine should give as a "minimum" peak power.

Could be the case then that other manufacturer gives the numbers in optimal conditions hence the difference between quoted number and actual number on dyno and then extrapolating(with whatever loss that is calculated in drivetrain etc) back to crank.

 

[S650 GT]

Yeah I changed as I misread it first.

I have seen 100s of dyno-videos so I know what you mean as such and have seen many irl

But the point remains that they do not advertise the figures at the wheel but rather at the crank.
As mentioned they do "understate" the figures as the number given is what the engine should give as a "minimum" peak power.

Could be the case then that other manufacturer gives the numbers in optimal conditions hence the difference between quoted number and actual number on dyno and then extrapolating(with whatever loss that is calculated in drivetrain etc) back to crank.

Come one, you understand what I'm saying.

People put their cars on a dyno to see what the car really makes right?
Those numbers on the dyno are the same as what the car is advertised with.
Some even make more WHP than the paper BHP. This is the point.

This is not the case with American vehicles.

 

[Zig]

This is not the case with American vehicles.

We’re crude like that. We let you know what the engine makes, what you do with it after that is up to you. Rear wheel is telling you what you gonna get with that particular combination. Unless each variant is labeled accordingly a swag/fudge factor is implied.

 

[Mazman]

Come one, you understand what I'm saying.

People put their cars on a dyno to see what the car really makes right?
Those numbers on the dyno are the same as what the car is advertised with.
Some even make more WHP than the paper BHP. This is the point.

This is not the case with American vehicles.

I get what you mean but still the numbers given by the OEMs is not power at the wheels

Some OEMs seem to give the figures with optimum conditions and e.g. what seems to be the case with BMW is the lowest number the engine will give at peak or they just plain understate the figures for whatever reason.

With all of that said the turbocharged beemers are quick as hell

 

[S650 GT]

I get what you mean but still the numbers given by the OEMs is not power at the wheels

Some OEMs seem to give the figures with optimum conditions and e.g. what seems to be the case with BMW is the lowest number the engine will give at peak or they just plain understate the figures for whatever reason.

With all of that said the turbocharged beemers are quick as hell

But with this information, we know we have to take the American paper-HP with a grain of salt compared to European manufacturers paper-HP.

This is why so many people are dissapointed when Mustangs are put on the dyno.
For me this was also new, until last year or some. I really thought a Mustang would make around the same amount of HP on the wheels, but nope. From 500 BHP to 408 WHP is for me a huge power loss.

 

[ThreePedalPlow]

But with this information, we know we have to take the American paper-HP with a grain of salt compared to European manufacturers paper-HP.

This is why so many people are dissapointed when Mustangs are put on the dyno.
For me this was also new, until last year or some. I really thought a Mustang would make around the same amount of HP on the wheels, but nope. From 500 BHP to 408 WHP is for me a huge power loss.

Can we at least trust that you have moved on from panel gaps now?

 

[S650 GT]

Can we at least trust that you have moved on from panel gaps now?

Just a handful of people got their car. We can't discuss panel gaps until we see more. But the ones that got them have good panel fitment.

 

[REV745DH24]

My previous thought that I would expect the horsepower rates would be so low with the Dark Horse Mustang. But as I thought in my dreams, what about my ability to modify the engine like I did with my 2003 Cobra which I had put in supercharger and tweaked it to 561 horsepower. So what is stopping me, hey, really nothing can stop me from putting some serious stuff on my Dark Horse? Ha, no, nothing is stopping me. I am going to figure it out with all my aged brains! Lol! Yes, I can do it regardless of the horsepower ratings right now in the Dark Horse. I can check out the vast of information and make my decision what I am going to do with the DH Mustang. I will carry on the torch no matter how big the flame is on it!!! I'll be back here with you guys and I ain't going to quit! Take care, all of you! I'll come back with the pictures for sure to carry my stories into the future till the Lord takes me home sweet home! John 3:16

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