Is 486hp enough?? Let’s discuss

[RocketGuy3]

The base 2015 GT MSRP was $32K, without the PP. The 2022 GT MSRPs at 38K. The 2024 will probably MSRP at $41K. That's 28% in 9 model years and no more base calculator screen

The other thing @Grintch is failing to take into consideration is inflation. His $32K in 2015 is not worth much less than that $41K in 2024.

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[Q6543]

Ford actually had a TTV6/10 speed mustang test mule several years ago at my old plant.

The guys who drove it said it annihilated the GT350 when they were messing around And then it just got shelved.

 

[Dub347sbf]

Ford actually had a TTV6/10 speed mustang test mule several years ago at my old plant.

The guys who drove it said it annihilated the GT350 when they were messing around And then it just got shelved.

The Mach 1 HP already beat the GT350R in the Lightning Lap, and sounds great doing it.

The Dark Horse with carbon fiber wheels should do even better while sounding much better than a v6.

Glad to know the TT V6 can hang, but I'm still all in for a Dark Horse, and would take a Mach 1 over the TT V6 if those were the only choices.

 

[Bulldog9]

I'd love to see a 3 or 4 liter V8...... and a 6/8 downsized and lightened Mustang. 300 HP 30+MPG, 3000lb car.

Tough to do with 500-1000 pounds of airbags, computers, aux batteries, power accessories, emissions crap, etc etc.... Still, a man can dream.

So sick of seeing cars bloat and get crammed full of unnecessary crap.

So sad that Stellantis is NOT making the Challenger/Barracuda based of the Alfa Romeo Gulia Chassis..........

 

[Hack]

So how much heavier is the S650?
How much more does the S650 cost?

That drives how much HP it should have.
I expect 5% heavier (~200 lbs), so 460 -> 483 hp just to maintain the power to weight.

But the price has gone up on top of that, and I expect more expensive sporty cars to have MORE performance. So my 2015 GT PP had 435 hp, and cost me $32K. I am betting a S650 GT will be hard to get under $50K, roughly 1.5 the cost. So it should have 435 x 1.5 = 650 hp (ignoring the weight growth).

As you can imagine the $60K+ Dark Horse with 500 hp doesn't impress me. I wasn't a big fan of the Mach 1 either. In both cases you seemed to be paying close to GT350 prices without the heritage and performance and specialness of a Shelby. If GM didn't put incompetent stylists on the Camaro, making it uglier in the last two refreshes (2018 and 2020), I would probably be in a SS 1LE now.

Yes, Ford has been quite willing to raise prices quickly and not willing to build enough of the good stuff to keep ADMs down. I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you wrote.

For me the styling of the Camaro was fine, but I didn't like the experience of driving it as much as a Mustang. The tight cabin and crappy shifter were the main issues I had, but I also found the engine to be uninspiring. And I really liked the Dodge, but I think the Mustang is a lot better for the road course. If I decided to give up the road course I might consider a Dodge (of course it would have to be a used one at this point, but that's fine with me).

I'd love to see a 3 or 4 liter V8...... and a 6/8 downsized and lightened Mustang. 300 HP 30+MPG, 3000lb car.

Tough to do with 500-1000 pounds of airbags, computers, aux batteries, power accessories, emissions crap, etc etc.... Still, a man can dream.

So sick of seeing cars bloat and get crammed full of unnecessary crap.

So sad that Stellantis is NOT making the Challenger/Barracuda based of the Alfa Romeo Gulia Chassis..........

I think the Mustang would have to get smaller to lose weight. I would personally love to see that happen. I would be a lot more likely to buy a lighter, more agile Mustang as I think it would be a genuine improvement in the car.

It still remains to be seen how good the S650 will be, but I don't think the DH or GT are for me. I really hope there will be a more powerful NA V8 Mustang option without the electronic braking "feature".

 

[NightmareMoon]

I'll reiterate that the power numbers are just getting silly these days... It's unusable on the street in most situations, and I know most buyers don't go to the track. And in a time when ICE cars are slowly getting neutered, and often LOSING power between generations, it's pretty hard to complain about a 7-8% bump in an already stupid-powerful NA V8.



Not trying to pick on you, but people say this every time a new sports car is revealed, and every time the answer is the same. The [pretty incredible] standard safety features that are responsible for the majority of modern weight gains aren't going anywhere. But you always have the option to strip the car yourself of seats, sound deadening, luxury amenities... Hell, it might even be legal to strip some of the safety features you don't care about, especially if it's a track car.

Yeah, no, this isn't lightest version of the mustang they could make and still make money. They can easily shrink the dimensions a little without giving up AC and a sound system. They could actually use some lighter materials in some places. Its amazing what you can do if you actually make it a priority. The damn camaros are lighter in simliar trims, so ya.

Anyway, my own personal car IS on a racecar power and weight loss diet, so don't worry about me, but if they wanted to sell me an S650, dropping some lbs would get my attention and maybe distract me from the train wreck of styling choices they made on this generation.

 

[Bikeman315]

Its amazing what you can do if you actually make it a priority.

Except the ICE Mustang is no longer a priority. That boat has sailed.

The damn camaros are lighter in similar trims, so ya.

You mean the car that will no longer be made?

 

[NightmareMoon]

Except the ICE Mustang is no longer a priority. That boat has sailed.


You mean the car that will no longer be made?

Yeah that one!

I'm guessing they'll rest the camaros for a generation and then try to bring back the badge as an electric car some years from now. People won't like it coming back as an electric, but they'll probably be tired of getting gapped by electric SUVs by then.

 

[NegativeMultiplier]

More than. I'd like to think 480 is enough to let the car get controllably rowdy while not doing anything illegal.

If I stick it in first gear and roll into the throttle and the rears break traction, I'm having a good time. Or maybe I'm just easily impressed.

 

[Grintch]

The other thing @Grintch is failing to take into consideration is inflation. His $32K in 2015 is not worth much less than that $41K in 2024.

In 2015 the difference in transaction price and MSRP was significantly in the buyers favor, unlike now. But yes, Inflation is a thing. And I may have exaggerated my expectations a bit. But if Ford wants me to pay $60K + for a Black Horse, 650 hp is not a long way from what it would take to tempt me. The race versions of the GT350 showed an easy fix to the Voodoo's reliability issues, just go back to a 90 degree crank. But inflation in performance expectations/standards are a thing as well. I was a lot less likely to get embarrassed in my new sports car by a kid in his moms Tesla in 2015. My prior performance car to the Mustang was a Subaru STI. Which between 2004 and 2015 gained all of 20 hp, and it put on 200 lbs in that period so actually got slower. Which means I didn't even consider a new one when I was looking for it's replacement.

Isn't an affordable, high performance car what the Mustang is supposed to be? The historical benchmark for how well it succeeds is the competing Camaro. A 1LE is cheaper with equivalent hardware, and a Black Horse with all the goodies is too close in price to a much more powerful ZL1.

 

[Bulldog9]

Yes, Ford has been quite willing to raise prices quickly and not willing to build enough of the good stuff to keep ADMs down. I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you wrote.

For me the styling of the Camaro was fine, but I didn't like the experience of driving it as much as a Mustang. The tight cabin and crappy shifter were the main issues I had, but I also found the engine to be uninspiring. And I really liked the Dodge, but I think the Mustang is a lot better for the road course. If I decided to give up the road course I might consider a Dodge (of course it would have to be a used one at this point, but that's fine with me).



I think the Mustang would have to get smaller to lose weight. I would personally love to see that happen. I would be a lot more likely to buy a lighter, more agile Mustang as I think it would be a genuine improvement in the car.

It still remains to be seen how good the S650 will be, but I don't think the DH or GT are for me. I really hope there will be a more powerful NA V8 Mustang option without the electronic braking "feature".

True, and it is all in the packaging and space management. The Euro manufacturers do that so well compared to US manufacturers.

I'm pretty disappointed with the S650 aesthetically. I think the mechanical upgrades are spot on, but the interior and exterior are mostly terrible to my eye, at least in pics. Where they could have trimmed up the car, opened the greenhouse slimmer pillars, lowered the beltline and front cowl, and trimmed up the front and rear, they BLOATED and thickened everything. So much open and wasted space in the body and chassis.

Regarding the interior, the tacked on FABLETS on the dash in the base, and 1980's Hyundai or Toyota AC vents are ridiculous. I mean come on.......... The 'upgraded' is a bit better as it pretends to be one big display, but it still looks terrible. Again, at least in pics.

Granted, I am NOT a Ford or Mustang guy, my Bullitt is my first and last Ford or Mustang, but the S650 is a schwing and a mish........

 

[Hack]

True, and it is all in the packaging and space management. The Euro manufacturers do that so well compared to US manufacturers.

I'm pretty disappointed with the S650 aesthetically. I think the mechanical upgrades are spot on, but the interior and exterior are mostly terrible to my eye, at least in pics. Where they could have trimmed up the car, opened the greenhouse slimmer pillars, lowered the beltline and front cowl, and trimmed up the front and rear, they BLOATED and thickened everything. So much open and wasted space in the body and chassis.

Regarding the interior, the tacked on FABLETS on the dash in the base, and 1980's Hyundai or Toyota AC vents are ridiculous. I mean come on.......... The 'upgraded' is a bit better as it pretends to be one big display, but it still looks terrible. Again, at least in pics.

Granted, I am NOT a Ford or Mustang guy, my Bullitt is my first and last Ford or Mustang, but the S650 is a schwing and a mish........

Funny I'm opposite. I never really liked the S550 catfish styling that much and I think the 650 is an improvement.
I don't mind the new interior, but that's also not my priority. It seems like it will probably function fine, which is what matters to me. Most of it is similar/the same as your Bullitt, so I'm surprised you have such a strong reaction to it.

I'm not sure what's good about the Euro manufacturers. To me they seem really expensive for what you get. I don't need to be bent over that much for a car. I'd rather spend 1/3 of the money on a cheap Toybaru. It's not the most luxurious or high quality, but why spend so much on a depreciating asset that I will probably only keep for a few years anyway? I just seem wasteful.

The mechanical is where my priorities lie. There's nothing wrong with the S650 mechanically at all. Well, maybe the ebrake thing could be considered a mechanical flaw. And direct injection is needlessly complex without a significant functional gain. Those do seem minor to me, though. If I needed a car and really wanted new rather than used I would definitely consider buying. I just don't see enough of an improvement over previous Mustangs to make me really want to spend the money to upgrade.

 

[Evo1986]

I think the interior is nice. Some people don't like it, but you have to go with the time. Nobody offers analogue gauges anymore, nor do most people want it, hands down.

The quality of my 55 years GT is already solid with the Alcantara and Carbon Fibre. The S650 will probably made a jump to more qualitative materials, soft surfaces and less plastic.

To be fair ( and I say this as a German), the German cars who are all well known for quality, lack quality in base models. Don't get fooled. A C180 with no options whatsoever also isn't nice from the material. An AMG model on the other hand is spot on, but you pay way more money.

 

[RocketGuy3]

In 2015 the difference in transaction price and MSRP was significantly in the buyers favor, unlike now. But yes, Inflation is a thing. And I may have exaggerated my expectations a bit. But if Ford wants me to pay $60K + for a Black Horse, 650 hp is not a long way from what it would take to tempt me. The race versions of the GT350 showed an easy fix to the Voodoo's reliability issues, just go back to a 90 degree crank. But inflation in performance expectations/standards are a thing as well. I was a lot less likely to get embarrassed in my new sports car by a kid in his moms Tesla in 2015. My prior performance car to the Mustang was a Subaru STI. Which between 2004 and 2015 gained all of 20 hp, and it put on 200 lbs in that period so actually got slower. Which means I didn't even consider a new one when I was looking for it's replacement.

Isn't an affordable, high performance car what the Mustang is supposed to be? The historical benchmark for how well it succeeds is the competing Camaro. A 1LE is cheaper with equivalent hardware, and a Black Horse with all the goodies is too close in price to a much more powerful ZL1.

In a straight line, at comparable prices, EVs are going to be faster than ICE cars from here on out. That's just the world we live in now, and no amount of bitching about pricing or HP numbers will change that. So that Tesla is just not a fair comparison... But if you want to compare road course performance and durability, then our Mustangs still got em for a good while at almost any price point.

If you want to stick to the ICE world, though, I don't think you're going to do much better than a 2024 Mustang GT for the price... Especially if you also want an NA V8. So while yes, performance expectations do inflate, I think the Mustang is keeping up with that inflation. Your STi is a great example of what I was talking about. *Most* ICE cars are not keeping up with your inflationary expectations, and some are even losing power and speed. If you're not pleased with the 'Stang, what ARE you pleased with that's a reasonable alternative?

 

[Hack]

In a straight line, at comparable prices, EVs are going to be faster than ICE cars from here on out. That's just the world we live in now, and no amount of bitching about pricing or HP numbers will change that. So that Tesla is just not a fair comparison... But if you want to compare road course performance and durability, then our Mustangs still got em for a good while at almost any price point.

If you want to stick to the ICE world, though, I don't think you're going to do much better than a 2024 Mustang GT for the price... Especially if you also want an NA V8. So while yes, performance expectations do inflate, I think the Mustang is keeping up with that inflation. Your STi is a great example of what I was talking about. *Most* ICE cars are not keeping up with your inflationary expectations, and some are even losing power and speed. If you're not pleased with the 'Stang, what ARE you pleased with that's a reasonable alternative?

The best alternative in my opinion is 2015-2017 Mustang GT + mods or GT350. Either can be purchased in quite good condition for probably at least $20k less, and up to $40 or maybe even $50K less, depending on the price of new. A few year old 1LE SS Camaro wouldn't be as good, but it would also be a lot cheaper than a new DH as well. Yes neither will be as good, but they will be comparable and much more reasonable in price. But the GT and DH are great cars to purchase as well. With a brand new car financing and warranty make ownership worry free.

C7 Corvette could also be an acceptable alternative for shorter people. I think the C7 was a little too porky, but compared to a Mustang it's light.

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