(Dark)Horse Horsepower is lower than we thought?

[S650 GT]

My previous thought that I would expect the horsepower rates would be so low with the Dark Horse Mustang. But as I thought in my dreams, what about my ability to modify the engine like I did with my 2003 Cobra which I had put in supercharger and tweaked it to 561 horsepower. So what is stopping me, hey, really nothing can stop me from putting some serious stuff on my Dark Horse? Ha, no, nothing is stopping me. I am going to figure it out with all my aged brains! Lol! Yes, I can do it regardless of the horsepower ratings right now in the Dark Horse. I can check out the vast of information and make my decision what I am going to do with the DH Mustang. I will carry on the torch no matter how big the flame is on it!!! I'll be back here with you guys and I ain't going to quit! Take care, all of you! I'll come back with the pictures for sure to carry my stories into the future till the Lord takes me home sweet home! John 3:16

Are you preaching from the Mustang Bible that you got in the Mustang church in Ohio?

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[REV745DH24]

Are you preaching from the Mustang Bible that you got in the Mustang church in Ohio?

Name that group if you know them, I haven’t seen one lately and I just got here just less than two years so I’ve been busy but soon to settle down and think about what I want to do with the Mustang during winter and write them down and talk with them about modifications to come!
Take care!

 

[Steve Schwing]

A dyno review I viewed today recorded 3 back to back runs at 440hp with standardized SAE correction. The operators were pretty impressed with those numbers and mentioned the 500hp may be an underated number..

 

[S650 GT]

A dyno review I viewed today recorded 3 back to back runs at 440hp with standardized SAE correction. The operators were pretty impressed with those numbers and mentioned the 500hp may be an underated number..

That's still 60HP less than the paper-HP.
Take an RS3, M2, A45 AMG, Golf R on the dyno and they make what the paper-HP says.

On top of that, many people say that dyno is a happy dyno because more reputable companies measured it way under their number.

 

[Zig]

That's still 60HP less than the paper-HP.
Take an RS3, M2, A45 AMG, Golf R on the dyno and they make what the paper-HP says.

On top of that, many people say that dyno is a happy dyno because more reputable companies measured it way under their number.

In this case we are purchasing an engine wrapped in a car not a car containing an engine.

 

[S650 GT]

In this case we are purchasing an engine wrapped in a car not a car containing an engine.

Some cars have balloons in the sky but two birds in his hand can never be stronger than manual transmission when choosing for the 401A pack. The most important thing is that wheels can't turn with a flat bottom steering wheel attached to the screens. Before you judge, you have to wait until the spare tire comes out of the hood with the jack in your hands waiting to be placed on the roof.

 

[texas8709]

My guess would be a number of things. One would be the drastically different wheel horsepower numbers that a single model could produce, depending on the specification. Take trucks for example, it's not as common now but previously you could have the same engine in the same model truck that can potentially be bolted to several different transmissions. It also could be RWD or 4WD, and nowadays also AWD. All those configurations are going to produce drastically different wheel horsepower numbers. Additionally, you had engines that were used in a wide variety of vehicles. A 302 or 351 could be found in a Mustang, a Bronco, a truck, a station wagon. All of those are going to produce different wheel horsepower numbers. Then there's the obvious discrepancies in dynos, ambient conditions, break-in of the engine, etc. The most consistent method with the fewest variables is to rate an engine's crank horsepower. Which ties into what I believe is the MAIN reason they use crank hp: Lawyers.
If they advertise wheel horsepower, the car will be expected to produce that stated output. Germany probably doesn't have as slimey of lawyers looking to convince someone to sue a company for the smallest thing. It's a lot more common for an owner to dyno their car at the wheels, and not the crank. And there's a lot more variables to effect that dyno result. So one guy dynos his car in the worst possible condition and sees less than advertised HP results, and now the company has a law suit for false advertising. So they can severely underrate their cars to try and cover this off, but how much margin do they give themselves? Do they underrate by 50hp? What if Chevy decides to gamble more and only underrate by 10? Now they look like they've fallen behind their rivals. So do they reduce their wiggle room and risk a lawsuit?
It's honestly not that had of a concept to grasp. I've never met anyone who'd bother taking their car to a dyno who doesn't understand that most cars advertised HP is at the crank. Bimmers don't? That's great! I think, once again, anyone who would dyno their car also knows that their advertised HP is going to roughly be about what it makes at the wheels. So it would seem underrated, but is also expected. Regulations or standards for rating power output in the US/UK/Germany may also be different.

 

[Zig]

Some cars have balloons in the sky but two birds in his hand can never be stronger than manual transmission when choosing for the 401A pack. The most important thing is that wheels can't turn with a flat bottom steering wheel attached to the screens. Before you judge, you have to wait until the spare tire comes out of the hood with the jack in your hands waiting to be placed on the roof.

If you replace the engine in any of the European stated vehicles do you get the same Hp? What about hybrid assist? The engine is simply an ‘option’. Which option do you select?

 

[S650 GT]

If you replace the engine in any of the European stated vehicles do you get the same Hp? What about hybrid assist? The engine is simply an ‘option’. Which option do you select?

I select plastic engines with wood as fuel to compensate the weight loss of trucks that drive around in bushes without rubber on the side mirrors.

 

[Zig]

I select plastic engines with wood as fuel to compensate the weight loss of trucks that drive around in bushes without rubber on the side mirrors.

Aught oh, I think I broke it.

 

[REV745DH24]

That's still 60HP less than the paper-HP.
Take an RS3, M2, A45 AMG, Golf R on the dyno and they make what the paper-HP says.

On top of that, many people say that dyno is a happy dyno because more reputable companies measured it way under their number.

How would they make happy dyno work?

 

[Upacurb]

How would they make happy dyno work?

They buy it a beer and dinner before putting their car on top of it...

 

[ShadesOfBloo]

I started this thread because horsepower is something very confusing.
The reason why this is confusing, is because there are so many factors to take into account.

I'm from Europe and I'm an American muscle car fan. Huge engines with huge amount of power.. that's what they said..

You have Brake Horsepower (BHP) and Wheel Horsepower (WHP). This is what most of us know.
- BHP refers to the power generated and measured at the crankshaft just outside the engine.
- WHP is measured at the wheels.

Many American car manufacturers advertise BHP, but they don't tell you this.
Many European car manufacturers advertise with WHP and they also don't tell you this, but it's logical to advertise the power you get on the wheels.
(But not in the US LOL).

So now you have two cars for example.
- Ford Mustang Dark Horse (500HP)
- BMW M2 (453HP)

The M2 outperforms the Dark Horse. Not only because of the weight, but also because it has more power.

When putting both cars on the dyno, the Dark Horse makes 408 HP (Steeda) and 420 WHP (another video I saw) instead of the 500HP.
The BMW M2 makes even a bit more power on the dyno what BMW advertised.

Now it gets even more confusing.

Example:
You live in the States and you decide to buy 2 cars from your local dealership.
You go look at the BMW M2 and it says 500HP. You test it on the dyno and it makes 500HP.
You go look at a Mustang and it says 500HP. You test it on the dyno and it makes 415HP.

This to me feels like a scam.

All those numbers just to look good, but in fact you get almost 100HP less than what they advertised.

Regardless of what the manufacturer is advertising, there's no rule that they can't underrate a car.
BMW is claiming you get 453hp. They aren't promising you only get 453hp.

I remember something similar going on with the BMW Zupr4: Most owners who've had theirs tested on a dyno measured more horsepower at the wheels than it was rated for at the flywheel.
Among other reasons, they might be trying to avoid a situation where someone finds less power than expected and drag the OEM through the mud over it.
E.g. When Ford's 32v Cobras had one dyno result after another showing their power to was too low for 320 at the flywheel. There was a recall to replace parts and add power, at no cost to Cobra owners. Then Ford took a year off from making the Mustang Cobra to fix it the assembly line issues. Overall, a great expense to Ford because they were optimistic about ratings and didn't expect owners to call them out like they did.

I'm happy with my S550 GT. My 419hp at the wheels is consistent with 460+ at the flywheel.
I think it's hilarious to see that the S650 and Dark Horse are overrated in so many ways.

 

[Lastoutlaw_21]

I got a DH and will get it by the end of the yr. I also got a DH over a Mach because it will hold some value until the gt500. Plus I needed to put myself in a great position with the dealer for a future allocation. The 20 hp is just to manage weight. I care about how the car drives everyday and handles which was an issue for the s550 at times. I also see how Ford programing could be causing issues and maybe that is interfering. But one person drag time is not the end of the world. But if its a ford issue, im sure ford will update it or offer a fix like they did in the past. But I always saw the s650 as an aftermarket last big pull. So once these cars are unlocked then you might have more significant increases in power when compared to the 3 gen due to how the engine is set up.

Also why we comparing Ford to BMW still. One builds muscle/track/sport car combo. The other builds luxury performance/ track/ sport combo. BMW made to go fast really quick, Ford made to enjoy, listen to and has character. One is forced induction so you get power quickly with boost. The other car is NA which is made for a linear increase in power over time to enjoy the sound and progression of the car. Different philosophies for the brands. As far as the WHP or Engine HP debate... all cars are HP from the engine. Bmw just never tells us what th engine makes. Audi, Mercedes, lambo, Aston are giving you engine HP too.

 

[MeMyselfandI]

All that really matters to me is what my butt tells me. Driving a BMW is fun but driving a manual Mustang with active exhaust is an experience. For me horse power is not best expressed as a number it’s a feeling / emotion and the Mustang captures that best.

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