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Dark Horse vs Shelby

ssmith891

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I don't think there's a chance that the range topping street Mustang (omitting the GTD for obvious reasons) for the S650 generation is a package for the Mustang GT or DH and not a standalone model. The current FP800S doesn't nearly replace something like the S550 GT500 in the lineup and neither would the hypothetical "DH FP800S" you've created.

I know all about the history of the brands we're talking about and I somewhat agree with the idea that people place too much emphasis on the value of these cars. I don't think there's a reason to believe the DH is the replacement for the Shelby nameplate, it is a track focused Mustang GT. The GT350/500 are a lot more than that, even going back to previous SVT Mustangs. The DH is much more akin to a Bulliitt or Mach 1 and there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't understand what you're trying to say in the last paragraph. Shelby American has no value to what we're talking about. The GT350/GT500 are Ford Performance vehicles.
:clap:

Summed up beautifully.
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agreywolfe

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I agree with most of what was said here, but the tire quote
The tires are a specific spec… not standard tire made specifically for the gt350
That's not a GT350 exclusive thing here. The gt350 had pilot super sport tires. I'm not 100% but I assume the R had the better Cup 2s later found on the pp2/Mach 1. The Dark Horse is very similar here with the trofeo RS being the same exclusivity with the only other trofeo rs car being a Pagani.

While I agree with the other points about the GT350, you can't understate how important tires can be to any car design.
 

Upacurb

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I agree with most of what was said here, but the tire quote

That's not a GT350 exclusive thing here. The gt350 had pilot super sport tires. I'm not 100% but I assume the R had the better Cup 2s later found on the pp2/Mach 1. The Dark Horse is very similar here with the trofeo RS being the same exclusivity with the only other trofeo rs car being a Pagani.

While I agree with the other points about the GT350, you can't understate how important tires can be to any car design.
The Michelin tires were designed exclusively for the GT350R, and they have a special compound and tread pattern.

From this article
https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/gt350-vs-gt350r

There is more then just this article on it but when I go to buy tires for my car… there is a cup 2 and then a cup 2 specifically for the 350r

I didn’t even realize this until the first time I bought tires so not mad you didn’t know either…

those Pirellis are awesome tires though … I’m super tempted to try them on my car if they come in the right sizes… haven’t checked yet
 

LCDRChemEng

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Sweet Shelby bro :crackup:

After '68 Carrol Shelby had nothing to do with anything Ford was doing. He just slapped his name on anything he could make money off of. Pretty good gig that guy had going all those years. People paid hard earned cash for that snake badge. I bought the GT350 because of the mechanical package, not because it had snakes and stripes and the name on it. I would have preferred that it had been a Mach 1 or a Boss 320 etc.
1989-Dodge-Shelby-CSX-VNT-14-1997601394.jpg
Didn't he put his name on a Dodge?
 


OP
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sjerven

sjerven

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As a biased DH owner I think it’s the best Mustang ever made! 😂
That said, all Mustangs are really cool cars, regardless of the year or badge. As a former Camaro and current C8 owner, the Mustang has outsold both Chevy models since 1964.
The fact that Ford transforms a $30k rental car into a track beast is awesome. The history of Shelby and racing is special; and it was a great movie!
Whether we like it or not, cars and technology are changing. There may not be many years left for the V8 muscle car, so let’s enjoy them while we can!
S650 Mustang Dark Horse vs Shelby IMG_3034
 

Dena

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I have just gone through 5 pages of this thread and mostly it's an argument over engines. There are three things that go into a great car. The engine, the suspension and the tires. My 82GT was advanced for the time and it didn't cross into the 200 horse power range. The secret was the suspension that kept the tires on the road. Chevy didn't have it so they could do better in the quarter mile but on a track they lost enough speed in the corners that they couldn't keep up. The tires on the 82 were not impressive and it would become clear that they needed work as well.
How good was the car? It was good enough that many police departments adopted it as a pursuit car and it could keep up with most anything on the road at the time.
The other manufactures have learned from Ford and in some places have gone beyond. Ford is still using a small block V8 while others play with more cubic inches. It comes down to how much money you want to put in the car and where you want to put it.
 

Mikepol2

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This thread is bringing me back to yesteryear... 2021 when the same argument started between the GT350 and Mach 1.

It always ends the same way. 350 owners talk about the unique engine and Shelby brand. M1/DH owners talk about the unreliable 350 engine and the performance comparable to the 350.

I'm actually surprised there's not more (any?) DH owners wanting to convince people about how much better their cars are than Mach 1's.
 

Upacurb

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This thread is bringing me back to yesteryear... 2021 when the same argument started between the GT350 and Mach 1.

It always ends the same way. 350 owners talk about the unique engine and Shelby brand. M1/DH owners talk about the unreliable 350 engine and the performance comparable to the 350.

I'm actually surprised there's not more (any?) DH owners wanting to convince people about how much better their cars are than Mach 1's.

Yep pretty much lol the funny part is it would be interesting to see how much experience people have with all of these different cars ...

I have owned a 16 GT A6, a 19 PP1 A10 car, and now my car - but have also driven

I forgot exactly how many - but 5-6 S550 GT500 base cars
24 GT A10
3-4 GT350 bases
2 Roush RS3s - both A10s
Mach 1 with HP and M6

I have my personal opinions on all of that which may differ from others....but overall - I didnt dislike any of them

As far as the Voodoo and Coyote- love both motors and they both have different characteristics - I specifically looked for a Coyote in my F150 as I love that motor as well -

Some people might find the characteristics of one motor more favorable then the other- to me that is a personal choice
 

EdMan63

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My car is better than your car. My phone is better than your phone. It never stops.

The bottom line to me is every car is an evolution of those before it. The GT350 has a never before used Voodoo engine which does indeed make it a special car. The fact that it is no longer in production only adds to its mystique. The GT500 is just raw power in a great looking/handling package. But in all practicality, who needs that much horsepower on the street?

No one here knows what lies beyond the Dark Horse. But whatever it is will certainly be special as the base will be so evolved and refined. The GT350 didn't have the bones of the today's Mustang when it went into production so it may have some limitations that the Dark Horse doesn't have. I mean take a Dark Horse and put a Whipple on it and make some other revisions and you have a monster. Every Mustang stands on its own merits. I love them all. But having one or the other should not make anyone feel superior.
 

Mikepol2

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Yep pretty much lol the funny part is it would be interesting to see how much experience people have with all of these different cars ...

I have owned a 16 GT A6, a 19 PP1 A10 car, and now my car - but have also driven

I forgot exactly how many - but 5-6 S550 GT500 base cars
24 GT A10
3-4 GT350 bases
2 Roush RS3s - both A10s
Mach 1 with HP and M6

I have my personal opinions on all of that which may differ from others....but overall - I didnt dislike any of them
Yep I’ve owned the Mach and a 2018 GT and spent a lot of time in 350’s so I feel somewhat comfortable offering opinions on them. But a lot of folks who comment on the topic may not have that kind of experience to draw on and can only go by what they read or watch.
 

RocketGuy3

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I've only briefly driven and ridden in a GT350, and it wasn't at the limits, but based on what I've read and heard time and time again on YouTube as well as from owners at the track, the main advantage the Shelby's (esp 350s, I think) have on the DH is steering feel and feedback. The GT350 is consistently praised as one of the best there is, especially by EPS standards, meanwhile the DH (and most modern Mustangs) are on the opposite end of that spectrum. Speaking from experience, I'm not terribly impressed by the feel of my Mach 1, especially near the limits of cornering grip, and I'm sure the DH is no better.

That is kind of a big deal when it comes to sports cars that are driven properly... But if you're just looking for on-paper performance bragging rights, or a shiny garage toy to show off, then it hardly matters.

... To be clear, I still absolutely adore my Mach 1. There is tons to love about is, as I'm sure is the case for the DH also.
 

OppoLock

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Didn’t read the whole thread so apologies if someone already pointed this out, but comparing the Shelby GT350 to its analogous counterparts, the DH and M1, it exclusively received:

- a carbon composite front subframe
- unique fenders and hood, versus just bumpers (or in the case of the DH and M1, a front bumper and just rear diffuser changes)
- bespoke recaros (with a variation for the GT500, but having owned both a GT and 350 with Recaros, the latter’s more aggressive shell is both better securing and better looking, and there shouldn’t be a reason why ford chose to skimp on the DH and M1 with this option)
- bespoke engine

On top of all the other changes that are shared with the M1 and DH.

And it was a better value proposition, whether that’s due to inflation or profit mongering.

Pretty clear and substantial advantages imo. It was so good that the Lord had to nerf it into oblivion with garbage ass reliability. Couldn’t let it be too perfect at the end of the day.
 

OppoLock

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I don't think there's a chance that the range topping street Mustang (omitting the GTD for obvious reasons) for the S650 generation is a package for the Mustang GT or DH and not a standalone model. The current FP800S doesn't nearly replace something like the S550 GT500 in the lineup and neither would the hypothetical "DH FP800S" you've created.

I know all about the history of the brands we're talking about and I somewhat agree with the idea that people place too much emphasis on the value of these cars. I don't think there's a reason to believe the DH is the replacement for the Shelby nameplate, it is a track focused Mustang GT. The GT350/500 are a lot more than that, even going back to previous SVT Mustangs. The DH is much more akin to a Bulliitt or Mach 1 and there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't understand what you're trying to say in the last paragraph. Shelby American has no value to what we're talking about. The GT350/GT500 are Ford Performance vehicles.
The Bullitt was a glorified appearance package for a GT PP1. Same running gear, same engine, same trans, same everything as a GT PP1 with some interior and exterior flourishes.

The DH is largely a copy paste of Mach 1 bits. The Mach 1 was largely a copy paste of the GT350 with a small dash of GT500 bits. But the trio occupy an identical role and space distinctly above something like a GT PP1/PP2 and below a 500.

You’re right about those Ford Performance package. bunch of secondary hooplah; warrantied blower.

the thing here that makes the DH more than " a bullitt or Mach 1" is just how much Ford is putting behind the Dark Horse name. this is more than just the DH or the DHHP, the Dark Horse R is a new purpose built race car, the Mustang GT4 is a GT4 spec Dark Horse, and the mustang GT3 carries the Dark Horse badge as well. Ford clearly wants the Dark Horse name to mean more than "a Bullit or Mach 1"
Ford also has a history of short term GT-class cars like the S197 Boss 302R, S550 GT4 and GT350R-C. It makes sense to see them use the current Ford Performance moniker for Motorsports entries, although you do have a point, they’re rolling out a ton of variants at once. That could be in part to bolster the name.
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