Horsepower wars and "how much is too much"?

[Stonehauler]

Going to start a topic that is sure to stir up the ire of some folks, but I am genuinely curious.

Over the past 30 years, we have seen an evolution in engine/motor/drivetrain design that has gone from where a powerful car was approaching 200 horsepower, to one where we have trucks and cars approaching or surpassing 500 HP. Some are even approaching 600 without getting into supercar territory. Even supercars are starting to blow by 1000 hp street legal cars being produced by the major manufacturer (not an upfitter)

Yes, one could argue that a nearly 5000 lb car of today at 500 hp is similar to an older 3000 lb car producing 300hp, and that is one metric that can be easily argued. Yet, we are also seeing performance (but non-supercars) today running 0-60 times (0-100 times for our metric friends), in the sub 4 second range (3.7, 3.3, etc.). These numbers are solid super or even hypercar territory from a decade or so ago. You even has sub 2 second cars. You even have mass market cars like the Camry(with the 3.5 from 2018-2024) that offered 300+ hp. and the entry level mustang of today has more HP than the cobra of 1997. Even work trucks have diesels that offer 500 hp and 1200 ft-lbs of torque

One of the things that allows these numbers is the adoption of AWD in many vehicles, that help put the power down "safely" for the average driver.


Don't get me wrong, I love the HP wars, and I have benefitted from them. My current car (without a tune) has over 500 hp and torque. But it's also had me start to wonder about "how much is too much" for the everyday driver. I am not talking about professional drivers, or even the enthusiast. but the average 20 year old, or 40-50 year old suffering a mid-life crisis, and neither of them having had any advanced driving courses.

That said, is there a line for HP in the real world? If so, where does it reside? In hp/ton? in top hp? Is the issue HP, or is it torque? Is it an acceleration limit? Is it something else?

I would love to hear your thoughts on it. Is there a line or not, and where is it? Is it a fuzzy line, or a hard line, or is it...I don't know how much is too much, but I know it when I drive it...

Looking forward to the discussion.


NOTE: While this is an edit and I have loved the discussion so far, I am actually talking about street cars (and for the most part, fairly stock cars) that are used as a daily driver, not purpose built drag cars, or show car queens you haul out to impress the other gear heads, but one you drive every day. However, I am sure there are people daily driving 1000+ hp machines, and to those of you that do, well done.
However, feel free to continue the discussion that's started as well. Seeing a lot of great opinions on the subject.

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[Q6543]

Area dependent, I’m in SE Michigan, and it’s dream cruise week, there are probably more 13-1400HP cars on the street cruising here this weekend than anywhere else.
I know of several 2K HP plus vipers from Nth are usually in town.

That’s about the upper limits for us…. Low teens, the mid teen cars or better are exceptions for sure.

you can take any 20-up GT500 and slap a 3.8 whipple and a fuel system and make a fairly reliable 1200ish HP car over a weekend.

I know a few foxes rolling around in the mid teens are out here too.

my S650 is mid 800s and I don’t race anymore, to me it’s just “pretty quick” or a “nice cruiser”
But I know where I am, it’s not FAST fast.

 

[Zig]

How open is your road. Too much is usually relative to the application. What was the top speed of the first indy 500? Bricks to pavement plus progress same course. Time travel is relative to the perspective.

 

[Starship Enterprise]

To me, too much power is when the car can't handle it reliably and safely. If the car is uncontrollable under acceleration...etc.

EX: The Miata is loved not because it's a powerhouse, but because the power is a great match to the car.

For the Mustang, I'm enjoying my 486hp!

 

[Schullz]

Going to start a topic that is sure to stir up the ire of some folks, but I am genuinely curious.

Over the past 30 years, we have seen an evolution in engine/motor/drivetrain design that has gone from where a powerful car was approaching 200 horsepower, to one where we have trucks and cars approaching or surpassing 500 HP. Some are even approaching 600 without getting into supercar territory. Even supercars are starting to blow by 1000 hp street legal cars being produced by the major manufacturer (not an upfitter)

Yes, one could argue that a nearly 5000 lb car of today at 500 hp is similar to an older 3000 lb car producing 300hp, and that is one metric that can be easily argued. Yet, we are also seeing performance (but non-supercars) today running 0-60 times (0-100 times for our metric friends), in the sub 4 second range (3.7, 3.3, etc.). These numbers are solid super or even hypercar territory from a decade or so ago. You even has sub 2 second cars. You even have mass market cars like the Camry(with the 3.5 from 2018-2024) that offered 300+ hp. and the entry level mustang of today has more HP than the cobra of 1997. Even work trucks have diesels that offer 500 hp and 1200 ft-lbs of torque

One of the things that allows these numbers is the adoption of AWD in many vehicles, that help put the power down "safely" for the average driver.


Don't get me wrong, I love the HP wars, and I have benefitted from them. My current car (without a tune) has over 500 hp and torque. But it's also had me start to wonder about "how much is too much" for the everyday driver. I am not talking about professional drivers, or even the enthusiast. but the average 20 year old, or 40-50 year old suffering a mid-life crisis, and neither of them having had any advanced driving courses.

That said, is there a line for HP in the real world? If so, where does it reside? In hp/ton? in top hp? Is the issue HP, or is it torque? Is it an acceleration limit? Is it something else?

I would love to hear your thoughts on it. Is there a line or not, and where is it? Is it a fuzzy line, or a hard line, or is it...I don't know how much is too much, but I know it when I drive it...

Looking forward to the discussion.

The practical, real-world limit for everyday driving is a fuzzy threshold around 400–500 horsepower or a 10:1 weight-to-power ratio (lbs/HP), as beyond this, acceleration exceeds human reaction times and tire capacity on public roads. While instant torque often breaks traction faster than peak horsepower, the primary danger lies in managing excessive speed within environments that lack proper safety margins.

 

[Alex381]

I’ve always driven “fast” cars. My model 3 performance was the first car I drove that felt too fast. It was exhilarating to drive, but ultimate more speed than anyone actually needs. So I sold it and bought my second Mustang. The Mustang is plenty fast without being completely absurd. There is a point where cars simply have too much power, but a Mustang with 486hp at 4200lbs isn’t that.

 

[needforspeedirl]

I’ve always driven “fast” cars. My model 3 performance was the first car I drove that felt too fast. It was exhilarating to drive, but ultimate more speed than anyone actually needs. So I sold it and bought my second Mustang. The Mustang is plenty fast without being completely absurd. There is a point where cars simply have too much power, but a Mustang with 486hp at 4200lbs isn’t that.

The model 3 performance isn’t too fast. They especially struggle beyond 100 mph.

I guess you would say my Mustang is completely absurd since it has over 1000 hp and I’m just over here trying to figure out when and how much it’s going to cost to get it into the 3 second range 60-130 mph.

 

[Upacurb]

Area dependent, I’m in SE Michigan, and it’s dream cruise week, there are probably more 13-1400HP cars on the street cruising here this weekend than anywhere else.
I know of several 2K HP plus vipers from Nth are usually in town.

That’s about the upper limits for us…. Low teens, the mid teen cars or better are exceptions for sure.

you can take any 20-up GT500 and slap a 3.8 whipple and a fuel system and make a fairly reliable 1200ish HP car over a weekend.

I know a few foxes rolling around in the mid teens are out here too.

my S650 is mid 800s and I don’t race anymore, to me it’s just “pretty quick” or a “nice cruiser”
But I know where I am, it’s not FAST fast.

Super curious- with the radials how does your car hook up on the streets?
I drove an S550 Whippled A10 car but the tires were probably not the best option and it was pretty much not useable under 60MPH - and hopefully you quit racing but still go the track : )

To 95% of the population my car is fast
I know its slow - I have owned faster cars (and even those arent "fast")

 

[2026DHCARB]

I think that power is an incomplete indicator. 1.000 hp in my DH maybe fine if torque curve is well refined and not as spiky as a 2.0 turbo engine with a small turbocharger. In an AWD 1.000 hp all the way.

Tesla Model 3 Performance gets me dizzy when accelerating hard from a stop, is too silent and constant. But on higher speeds it looses breath. Too much torque down low, too little horsepower up high.

 

[smurfslayer]

Everything is relative to the owner, purchaser, driver. The level of refinement and control is what separates the current crop of high HP vehicles. The S650 is a great chassis and has really good electronics that can save you from youtube infamy. Even with 800+ hp.

My PS4S are pretty abused at this point, traction control be damned. She would stick a lot better on higher quality pavement for sure, but I'm in Texas and for the relative few times we get rain, it's like a driving apocalypse. Mass panic, flashers on, anchors dropped, people getting out and praying to God for forgiveness, at least 1 tractor trailer per major city with a cab or trailer hanging perilously from one of the interstate flyover ramps... You get the idea.

We cannot handle rain in Texas. Yeah, sure I did great at track attack in the wet but I didn't have a road full of panicans to contend with.
So PS4S it is until or unless a stickier rain capable tire comes along.

Anyway, are we to the point that it's too much?
FÚCK no.

Fun fact: Liter bike and larger displacement motorcycles have been 2.? second 0-60 capable for 25 years plus. My '90 ZX11 did 10's in the quarter mile when I was an amateur. It was far more capable than me. That bike was ok handling with adequate brakes. Even after a pair of brake upgrades, she still stopped at about 115-118' from 60mph. No traction control, no ABS, no launch control except my right wrist. She was a handful. Father time caught up and despite thousands on motor expenditures, both my subsequent bikes were much faster.

Too fast for thee /= too fast for me.

 

[Ninjak]

Power is relative to what the driver can handle. Also for what you are using the car for. Power is relative to what you can put to the floor. Spinning is not winning. You can have 1k HP, but if you cannot put it down, then you have too much for what you are trying to do, and now your 1k power is just a conversation.

I am making 800+, I need to go to a dyno session to see where the final number is, but for my application, I need to watch how I use that power. I am trying my hand at tracking the car, not 1/4 mile anymore. (tracks closed).

So for me, I have more than enough power, and honestly more than enough power for 95% of the cars here. There is always someone faster, so for that I will not be concerned.

 

[Wiley Marmot]

Hhhhmmmm???? A companion question/conundrum is how little driver skill is too little?

I have a family member who spun their rust bucket 1974 Nova out; while turning left
at a corner in the rain.

Forum: So, how'd that end, Wiley?

Wiley: Did you know rust bucket Novas don't climb utility poles worth a $hit?

Minor bumps and bruises; no serious injury. Family members explanation for their profound lack of skill and judgement? It was because of those $hitty tires (which; oddly, were the ONLY new things on the rust bucket).

Probably a good thing my ex spurt driver family member wasn't driving one of those 1400 HP cars @Q6543 was telling us about.

 

[porphyre001]

The practical, real-world limit for everyday driving is a fuzzy threshold around 400–500 horsepower or a 10:1 weight-to-power ratio (lbs/HP), as beyond this, acceleration exceeds human reaction times and tire capacity on public roads. While instant torque often breaks traction faster than peak horsepower, the primary danger lies in managing excessive speed within environments that lack proper safety margins.

A stock GT w/ AVE weighs around 3900lbs and has 486 hp. It's almost exactly 8:1 (3900 / 8 = 487.5)

12:1 is 325hp (Ecoboost-ish)
10:1 would be 390hp (your example)
9:1 is S550 Gen 2 (433hp)
8:1 is S650 GT Gen 4
7:1 is around 550hp, or GT350+bolt-ons (or GT350-R, no more HP but lighter)

A C8 Z06 weighs 3500 w/ 670hp or 5.25:1
Darkhorse SC is around 4200 w/ 795hp or 5.28:1
A Mazda Miata is 2350 w/ 181hp or 13:1

 

[rockman 2738]

Caroll Shelby's most famous horsepower-related quote is: "There is never enough horsepower... just not enough traction." [1]

 

[Q6543]

@Upacurb
I leave traction control on, at low and mid level throttle input they hold perfectly fine, if I’m on the freeway and go WOT, say 60 or 70 they’ll spin, but the car pulls real hard, it will get squirrely up to 100 ish

I barely ever do that, when I put the slicks on it just flat out hooks, if they spin at all the recovery is nearly instant.

my old fox body was the same, but the solid axle would kick out, get a lil sideways at 100, I’m just getting too old to be wild like that.

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