Shoe shopping - is Forged worth it?

[Junkyard Dog]

No. At least as far as the M7G readership is concerned. Could the Stig appreciate the difference? Probably.

But it does make a difference. It has been measured objectively, both on a circuit track and in acceleration, with cites provided above.

The difference between how a 1964 Mustang would perform lapping a race track circuit compared to a new Dark Horse with the handling package is made up of small improvements here and there over 61 years that all come together in what we have available today.

Making another small improvement with the wheels, and another (maybe larger) improvement with the tires, and so on, is a good thing.

It does not have to be the magnitude of performance increase that happens when bolting on a Whipple supercharger to make it worthwhile.

If he has the funds, and wants to increase his performance, forged wheels are probably a good bet. Track focused tires would be an even better bet, and maybe he combines the two and gets even more than 2+2=4 out of it.

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[Frogdog1]

Have an automatic GT premium. Like performance like everyone else but it's a daily driver. Deciding what benefit I might see from a tune ?

But it does make a difference. It has been measured objectively, both on a circuit track and in acceleration, with cites provided above.

The difference between how a 1964 Mustang would perform lapping a race track circuit compared to a new Dark Horse with the handling package is made up of small improvements here and there over 61 years that all come together in what we have available today.

Making another small improvement with the wheels, and another (maybe larger) improvement with the tires, and so on, is a good thing.

It does not have to be the magnitude of performance increase that happens when bolting on a Whipple supercharger to make it worthwhile.

If he has the funds, and wants to increase his performance, forged wheels are probably a good bet. Track focused tires would be an even better bet, and maybe he combines the two and gets even more than 2+2=4 out of it.

Or, just as quickly, he can end up with something he doesn't really want or need. There is a point of diminishing returns. Kind of getting what one asks for. When we get it, we wish we hadn't gotten it. Not everybody buys on want and needs. I suggest most people that aren't poor buy that way......making some people poor. Life can be a vicious circle.

 

[smurfslayer]

Lighter wheels definitely show a gain on the dyno and a tenth in the 1/4

20 hp ! that's pretty steep.

Like I said, I've had a different result. I've actually gone to the expense of re-mounting a cast wheel on my bike, redoing the dyno run, then remounting the 8 pound lighter rear wheel, with the same tire- again, this is a bike, so quite a significant reduction all things considered and dynoing again. All 3 within .2hp or some infinitesimally small amount. WELL within the dynojet margin of error.

I vaguely remember I may have dyno'd my '97 SVT Mustang and observed the same thing, but I think I also went to larger footprint tires. The biggest thing I've observed on wheels is steering response.

I just remembered something weird about the wheel dyno run. Dynojet has their 'theoretical' drag race feature, where you can compare 2 runs and I may be misremembering this, but I think the run with the lighter wheels may have won the drag race despite not having an appreciable difference on the dyno. I don't have all the charts anymore, I conveyed most of them when I sold the bike. I remember asking why and a lot of head scratching. About this time the wife showed up to schlep my stock wheels home.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

20 hp ! that's pretty steep.

Like I said, I've had a different result. I've actually gone to the expense of re-mounting a cast wheel on my bike, redoing the dyno run, then remounting the 8 pound lighter rear wheel, with the same tire- again, this is a bike, so quite a significant reduction all things considered and dynoing again. All 3 within .2hp or some infinitesimally small amount. WELL within the dynojet margin of error.

I vaguely remember I may have dyno'd my '97 SVT Mustang and observed the same thing, but I think I also went to larger footprint tires. The biggest thing I've observed on wheels is steering response.

I just remembered something weird about the wheel dyno run. Dynojet has their 'theoretical' drag race feature, where you can compare 2 runs and I may be misremembering this, but I think the run with the lighter wheels may have won the drag race despite not having an appreciable difference on the dyno. I don't have all the charts anymore, I conveyed most of them when I sold the bike. I remember asking why and a lot of head scratching. About this time the wife showed up to schlep my stock wheels home.

I do not have a dog in the fight, other than posting the results, but I cannot possibly know whether he or you did something different that makes the inconsistency resolvable. Nevertheless, there are acceleration tests and lap times posted above, too, all of which consistently show the same thing, improvements with reduced weight, and more improvements with even more reduced weight. It appears to be objective, measurable, and repeatable.

 

[24CTDH]

i love the spirited debate. everyone is making excellent points. what a divisive topic ive stumbled upon! Im glad my head isnt the only place this discussion is being played out in!

 

[Junkyard Dog]

i love the spirited debate. everyone is making excellent points. what a divisive topic ive stumbled upon! Im glad my head isnt the only place this discussion is being played out in!

It's not divisive - your money, your wheels, your car.



And objectively lighter is better, and forged are going to be lighter and better.

How much better and how expensive are the only questions.

 

[24CTDH]

okay well perhaps the word divisive has a negative connotation.

divided would have been a better word.


so whos gonna make a forged wheel company recommendation for me. I looked at Enkei and Konig (the only other reputable wheel makers i know) but i couldnt find anything wider than like a 9 or 9.5. Booo.

 

[robvas]

Having a nice set of Apex or whatever wheels will make your car stand out a little more. Better than the heavy 30+ lb junk you can buy. Will it make your car any faster around the track? Barely.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

I hesitated to make a recommendation, because I am not an expert in this field. If I were buying today, the only two I would consider are the Apex VS-5RS or the Apex SM-10RS, although I wish I could get them in the exact same color as my current Dark Horse wheels.

I did not want to mislead you through my ignorance, which is the only reason I did not post a response to that part of your question.

 

[RLE55]

Below is a good article on wheels.
Bottom line-for racing forged is recommended, but you can get by with flow formed.
For normal, day to day driving, go cast
I road raced on flow formed wheels for over 10 years and found them to be acceptable and affordable. About a quarter of the cost of forged, i.e. Forgeline.
https://astforgedwheels.com/cast-vs-flow-formed-vs-forged-wheels-the-real-difference/

 

[Junkyard Dog]

I hesitated to make a recommendation, because I am not an expert in this field. If I were buying today, the only two I would consider are the Apex VS-5RS or the Apex SM-10RS, although I wish I could get them in the exact same color as my current Dark Horse wheels.

I did not want to mislead you through my ignorance, which is the only reason I did not post a response to that part of your question.

They give some comparisons to their own flow formed wheel design at about 10 minutes in (video).

 

[smurfslayer]

I do not have a dog in the fight, other than posting the results, but I cannot possibly know whether he or you did something different that makes the inconsistency resolvable. Nevertheless, there are acceleration tests and lap times posted above, too, all of which consistently show the same thing, improvements with reduced weight, and more improvements with even more reduced weight. It appears to be objective, measurable, and repeatable.

I'm good with repeatable dyno and even track results if they're consistently done, all day, every day. As posted, I have almost 10x motorcycle dyno runs than car/truck. I did take a quick look and see a lot of motorcycle reports of small differences or none for wheels on the dyno.

If it's that big a difference on the car, absolutely do it. 1st vid with the 20hp hit, did a good job matching size, so I can't see any reason to doubt him or the other guys. Plus I've already admitted I'm probably getting wheels for the DH.

 

[robvas]

It's been years since I've had a bike (one was a 636 Kaw that would piss all the Harley guys off by winning the dyno competition at the bike meet), but I remember a lightweight rear wheel only being worth 2hp on the dyno

 

[Wiley Marmot]

Wiley -thank you! and what exactly did you feel improved or changed in your driving experience by dropping those pounds? .... you did change quite a bit at once so it might be hard to differentiate out the other variables i suppose

Yea; I can feel the diff. Every time my old tired *** has to lift one of 'em up onto the spindle!

I just looked my wheels (SVE R355s) up. They're both listed as being just under 24 lbs/ea. The OEM 20 x 9s were a hair over 38 lbs/ea (I had them weighed at the local UPS store for a potential sale + shipping costs)..................so it was approx a 14lb weight saving per corner. Pretty decent for the money (2024 Labor Day sale).

My GT is a cruiser/DD/GG so I don't have any lap times or ETs to show a performance increase. In any case the wheels were a wheel and tire package (Nitto triple 5s [285F and 305R]).
Much larger contact patch with much sticker rubber. My GT is absolutely planted better in corners (country roads) during vigorous street driving, and it hooks and goes much better under hard acceleration.

Oh yea...................with the 5 spoke design; I can't believe how much easier it is to access my calipers for cleaning than with the 20 spoke OEMs.

https://lmr.com/item/WTK-355912GBA/sve-mustang-r355-wheel-nitto-tire-kit-19x10-11-black-2024

 

[LouG]

The ultimate would be carbon wheels. They make a phenominal difference on a bike, but a car? I doubt the gain is worth the cost, and bikes don't suffer from kerbing.
In addition, l doubt lighter wheels affect hp to any degree, but their effect is like a lightened flywheel. Less rotational inertia = quicker response to input.
This was an interesting test.

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