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S650 mule spotted..........with all wheel drive?

Hack

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of course it is. I was talking about "just enough charge to get home". An EV without an ICE either as power to drive wheels or as genset is a fool's errand. Hybrid is how things will work on a durable basis.
I agree hybrid is more functional than EV, but pure gas is less expensive, less complicated and more reliable. I just don't see hybrid or EV as being competitive with a pure ICE, unless you just like the technology for the sake of liking technology.
 

shogun32

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The eco-wienie agenda has NO grounding in efficiency or less cost.
 

IceGamer

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I agree hybrid is more functional than EV, but pure gas is less expensive, less complicated and more reliable. I just don't see hybrid or EV as being competitive with a pure ICE, unless you just like the technology for the sake of liking technology.
Purely depends on your usage…

ICE cars are almost useless in towns, in cities or basically any short distance driving. EV’s would be better for 99% of those people.

However, we’re here in an enthusiast forum where I would assume 99% care about the driving experience itself and that is where pure EVs have almost nothing to offer at the moment. Driving, is fun, shifting is fun and the moment you have a car that has no shifting or no sound all, all that is left is acceleration… might be fun for a moment or two but I don’t see myself driving around in an EV because ‘it’s fun’…

Anyhow, an EV is more reliable, less expensive in the long run and more competitive than an ICE car as long as we don’t account for long range distances or race tracks in general. But I’m sure EV’s will overcome those issues in the next 10-20 years. Keep in mind that EV are only around for about ~10 years and our ICE development took almost 150 years to get where we’re now.
 

Hack

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Purely depends on your usage…

ICE cars are almost useless in towns, in cities or basically any short distance driving. EV’s would be better for 99% of those people.
I don't think you have considered that more and more people don't have garages or single family homes (and especially people who live in the city are less likely to have single family homes. EVs are terrible for all those people, because there's no easy way to refuel. ICEs are best for towns, or cities, short or long distance.

I snipped the bit where you said EVs are more reliable, but I decided I want to say that I disagree with that as well. As you said, EVs are new. Due to that we really don't know how reliable they are. And EVs will be like anything else - reliability depends on quality of materials, quality of design, forethought, testing, development, iterations and improvement, etc. There will be crappy and great EVs. Just being an EV doesn't automagically make it good (unless a person is so biased that they are blinded to reality).

In manufacturing there is always a tension between cost and sales price of a product. Manufacturers want to make cars as cheaply as possible so they can make the most profit. If they don't have a history with something they don't know the limitations. Once EVs become more common this will be obvious. Now there are only a tiny number of them on the road.
 

IceGamer

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I don't think you have considered that more and more people don't have garages or single family homes (and especially people who live in the city are less likely to have single family homes. EVs are terrible for all those people, because there's no easy way to refuel. ICEs are best for towns, or cities, short or long distance.

I snipped the bit where you said EVs are more reliable, but I decided I want to say that I disagree with that as well. As you said, EVs are new. Due to that we really don't know how reliable they are. And EVs will be like anything else - reliability depends on quality of materials, quality of design, forethought, testing, development, iterations and improvement, etc. There will be crappy and great EVs. Just being an EV doesn't automagically make it good (unless a person is so biased that they are blinded to reality).

In manufacturing there is always a tension between cost and sales price of a product. Manufacturers want to make cars as cheaply as possible so they can make the most profit. If they don't have a history with something they don't know the limitations. Once EVs become more common this will be obvious. Now there are only a tiny number of them on the road.
Well, we're talking about two different pair of shoes...

EV’s are the best inner city option if we talk about the drivetrain. Stop and go at low speeds is where EV’s shine and what’s most hurtful for ICEs. Obviously refueling is a huge issue at the moment but that is a different story. The only way to refuel EV’s for the vast majority of users in big cities is to change the infrastructure. Less ‘gas station’ type chargers but rather small charging options everywhere cars can be parked.

In terms of reliability we do have quite a good amount of data already… Besides, an EV has significantly less parts. Again, I’m talking about the drivetrain in general. Less parts means less things can break. In an EV there are only that many parts that aren’t hard to reproduce either.

Why are there almost no great ICE engines besides the ones from Germany and America? They are art, a lot of development goes into a new engines and it took hundred plus years to get where we’re now. One cannot simply build a V8 that’s much better than the Coyote or 6 cylinder engines that beat Porsche…
However, everyone can build an EV drivetrain… bazillion startups (Rivian, Tesla, Nio etc.) just proved it. They also build top of line engines. Why? It’s easy to do so, they’re pretty simple to build and have very few parts compared to an ICE.
 

spectremotorsports

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I don't think you have considered that more and more people don't have garages or single family homes (and especially people who live in the city are less likely to have single family homes. EVs are terrible for all those people, because there's no easy way to refuel. ICEs are best for towns, or cities, short or long distance.
This is changing rapidly, almost every new build apartment complex has chargers and I’ve seen multiple older complexes installing them as well.

I love ICE and hope it stays around for us enthusiasts for as long as possible, but hearing everybody saying they “need”Over 400-500 miles in range for it be viable is just blatantly ignoring the data on car usage.

the average car travels 14,260 miles a year, that’s 40 miles a day. Let’s get aggressive and say you drive 700% more than the average, that’s STILL only 274 miles per day of driving.

It’s easy to naysay any product if you create extreme use cases outside the average.

on another note, we can rule out AWD for the S650 as Ford Authority is reporting a source saying it isn’t happening.
 
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Hack

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Why are there almost no great ICE engines besides the ones from Germany and America? They are art, a lot of development goes into a new engines and it took hundred plus years to get where we’re now. One cannot simply build a V8 that’s much better than the Coyote or 6 cylinder engines that beat Porsche…
However, everyone can build an EV drivetrain… bazillion startups (Rivian, Tesla, Nio etc.) just proved it. They also build top of line engines. Why? It’s easy to do so, they’re pretty simple to build and have very few parts compared to an ICE.
I agree a great ICE engine is like art. EV drivetrains could also be thought of that way at some point. Right now you think they are all the same and I believe that's because there are very few out there.


This is changing rapidly, almost every new build apartment complex has chargers and I’ve seen multiple older complexes installing them as well.

I love ICE and hope it stays around for us enthusiasts for as long as possible, but hearing everybody saying they “need”Over 400-500 miles in range for it be viable is just blatantly ignoring the data on car usage.

the average car travels 14,260 miles a year, that’s 40 miles a day. Let’s get aggressive and say you drive 700% more than the average, that’s STILL only 274 miles per day of driving.

It’s easy to naysay any product if you create extreme use cases outside the average.

on another note, we can rule out AWD for the S650 as Ford Authority is reporting a source saying it isn’t happening.
If you have lots of money then you don't need the EV to be able to do the once a year longer trip. Same as if you have lots of money you can buy a new apartment and have charging options. EVs currently have this issue - they are not for the average or lower income people.

And I'm not saying it needs 400 miles range to be viable. I just think it needs more range or really fast recharge to be COMPETITIVE with ICE. ICE is just better right now. Maybe things will change soon. We will see.
 

shogun32

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Why are there almost no great ICE engines besides the ones from Germany and America?
Mr. Honda in on line 3.

but hearing everybody saying they “need”Over 400-500 miles in range for it be viable is just blatantly ignoring the data on car usage.
I think that kind of range is stupid. The bomb is just that much bigger and you have to carry that weight around all the time. 120-150mi range is PLENTY. For everything else there is highway super-chargers or swappable battery packs. Or ICE rentals. Or just behave like a good citizen afraid of their own carbon footprint shadow and stay the heck home.

IMO this is where the EV market is.
https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/2022-mx-30/compare-vehicle-specs-and-trims
Next year the range-extending rotary genset is supposed to make an appearance.
 
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Stonehauler

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This is changing rapidly, almost every new build apartment complex has chargers and I’ve seen multiple older complexes installing them as well.

I love ICE and hope it stays around for us enthusiasts for as long as possible, but hearing everybody saying they “need”Over 400-500 miles in range for it be viable is just blatantly ignoring the data on car usage.

the average car travels 14,260 miles a year, that’s 40 miles a day. Let’s get aggressive and say you drive 700% more than the average, that’s STILL only 274 miles per day of driving.

It’s easy to naysay any product if you create extreme use cases outside the average.

on another note, we can rule out AWD for the S650 as Ford Authority is reporting a source saying it isn’t happening.
I am not ignoring data on car usage, I am looking at data on MY usage.

I do road trips. Not being able to recharge the batteries on an EV is the factor I am most concerned about when I will replace my current vehicle in the next few years (not replacing it this year, probably not next due to supply issues and it being a horrible time to buy a car...I can wait.

I don't live in a city. We have one charging center (Tesla Chargers) in my town that just opened a few months ago. Prior to that, we had none. The nearest was 20 miles away at a mall, and those are usually full.

I don't do a daily commute. With the exception of my long drives, I put about 5,000 miles a year on a car. WITH long drives, I put about 8-9k miles a year on my vehicle. Last year, I put about 2600 miles on my car in the space of about 5 days. 800 miles to my Mother's house, 1000 miles down to her sister's place (my aunt) (800 there, 200 running them around for 2 days), and then another 800 back home. The three big legs were all done in a single day each. With travel resuming for my company, my big change will be that I will be taking my car on trips a lot more than destinations as I do not believe flying is safe for me (I always caught a cold when traveling pre-pandemic). This means even more long trips.

For people who don't need range, they should be free to purchase cars with smaller batteries that are cheaper. For those that do need the range, they should have that option. Just because city people would benefit from one change, do not presume that this change benefits people who don't like in major cities/crowded suburbs.
 
 
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