How do we save the mustang?

[Skye]

Ten pages?! I think we can do better than that.

Several comments earlier highlighted EV battery disposal processes, what's being done now. The following is some information I gathered on the topic.

EV Battery Recycling

Lithium is a fundamental element of the universe; it doesn't wear out. The element can be combined with others to form compounds (substance composed of two or more elements), but it can also be recovered from those compounds. The element is not broken or worn out in the process.

I'm attaching a doc I built on the S550 charging system, which references lead acid and lithium batteries, what they are made of and how they work.

There are challenges in recycling any material. Initial processes have been enhanced or abandoned in favor of new, quicker and more cost-effective measures. Those processes are still evolving, but they do exist and are in use here and other countries.

United States

I'm attaching several articles. EV battery recycling is already here, in the US. Plants exist in several states.

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uplo...-recycling-plants-in-the-United-States-v4.pdf

https://www.abiresearch.com/blog/ev-battery-recycling-in-us

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/

https://www.usa.ev-battery-recycling.com/

Ford

This morning I studied Ford's EV battery lifecycle management. They have partnered with a company, Redwood Systems.

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...ford-redwood-materials-battery-recycling.html

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/

Tesla has their program. GM has partnered with a company. In-general, any EV battery is recovered and recycled. In-field recycling of materials is 90%+. New lab processes are mid-90s recovery, including the lithium.

The overall goal is a closed loop process. After mining and manufacturing, the spent or damaged battery is completely recycled, lessening costs and materials availability strains throughout the entire cycle.

Europe

Plants open for recycling in Norway, Sweden and Poland, to name a few.

https://www.hydro.com/en/global/med...le-battery-recycling-plant-begins-operations/

https://www.electrichybridvehiclete...ttery-recycling-facility-opens-in-poland.html

https://www.stenarecycling.com/news...stry-scale-battery-recycling-plant-in-europe/

Asia

Plants are processing batteries in Singapore, South Korea and China.

https://mcsolutions.vn/singapore-battery-recycling-what-are-the-latest-developments/

https://www.chemanalyst.com/NewsAnd...-ev-lithium-ion-battery-recycling-plant-23999

https://www.statista.com/chart/32016/existing-and-planned-lithium-ion-battery-recycling-capacity/

Third World

While I'm not aware of abandoning batteries in developed countries, I am aware of the operating environment in third world countries.

Less-developed countries often have little to no environmental safeguards or laws in-place to protect citizens, water and land. We (the US and other countries) sometimes ship our environmental waste to these countries (the areas of West Africa, SouthEast Asia, to name two).

In the official statements, we "partner" with companies at these other locations. The reality is, it's more "out of sight. out of mind." Computing equipment, cabling, home electronics and other items of which it is economically unfeasible to recover anything worthwhile. In many locations, "processing" consists of lighting things on fire and seeing what comes about. Chemicals, often acids, can also be used. All this is done out in the open ground, in large dumps, or, facilities where the tailings are later dumped somewhere else.

It is possible we are sending trace elements and spent pieces from EVs to these other countries? Yes. How much, I cannot say. It's not a topic companies discuss in pubic forums.

There are 50 states and 3,000+ counties in the US. Different states have different disposal criteria for hazardous waste. In the US, there are plants which process and store hazardous waste, primarily chemicals, or chemically-contaminated soils (see East Palestine, OH). Study your state and the laws there.

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[Skye]

Regarding earlier comments on how nuclear waste is stored, some insight on that.

Nuclear Waste Disposal

Finland

Finland is a model for the rest of us. Spending $1B, they created a in-ground repository for nuclear waste: Onkalo (West coast of Finland, center of country). This site has just entered operations.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/...wer-to-spent-nuclear-fuel-waste-by-burying-it

https://www.ans.org/news/article-6349/finland-begins-trial-run-of-onkalo-repository/

United States

There is no national, strategic storage plan for nuclear waste in the US. Across the country, tens of thousands of tons of nuclear material is kept at the sites that create it. Spent fuel rods are kept in cooling pools and concrete casks.

https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/radwaste.html

There have been plans and permits to support long-term storage at sites in Nevada, Texas and New Mexico. In all instances, these plans have been opposed by state residents, with law suits and delays preventing any activity from going forward.

United Kingdom

The UK is a bit further along than the US with respect to storage. But while the waste is consolidated (Northern England, East of Liverpool), there is no long-term storage solution.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czx6e2x0kdyo

France

France recycles as much of its nuclear waste as possible. What cannot be recycled is planned to be stored in-ground: the Cigeo project, located in Western France. France plans to begin using its storage facility in 2025.

https://www.orano.group/en/unpacking-nuclear/all-about-radioactive-waste-in-france

https://international.andra.fr/solutions-long-lived-waste/cigeo

Germany

Germany had a plan to de-commission its nuclear reactors. Russia's invasion of Ukraine changed that. At this time, Germany does the same as the US: store waste fuel above ground at several sites. Germany does have plans to use long-term storage as soon as 2031.

https://sris.iaea.org/country-overview/introduction/DE/Germany

https://www.bge.de/en/radioactive-waste/current-inventory/

Japan

Japan is at about the same level as the UK: while waste has been consolidated and the Japanese are processing what they can, there is no long-term storage solution. The main processing site is the Rokkasho Complex, main island of Honshu, Aomori perfecture (NE Japan).

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/10/27/japan/nuclear-waste-site-struggles/

https://world-nuclear.org/informati...ofiles/countries-g-n/japan-nuclear-fuel-cycle

In 2011, the Tohoku earthquake created a tsunami which then struck the Daiichi Nuclear power plan on the main island of Honshu, East coast. Main and backup power systems were lost. Three reactors melted down.

https://www.tepco.co.jp/en/hd/decommission/progress/index-e.html

While Tepco has cleaned up what it can, they continue to develop systems which will allow them to decommission, recover and store the melted cores. Any timelines are decades-long.

Low-level radioactive waste water, used to cool fuel rod ponds, is being released into the nearby ocean.

Ukraine

Reactor 4 at the Chernobyl site (central Ukraine) experienced an explosion and partial meltdown in April of 1986.

During a training session loss of power and cooling, the failure of the cooling system resulted in overheating and explosion of the reactor.

Reactors 1-3 continued to operate for some time, but have since been shutdown. The entire site is in the process of being decommissioned. The safety cell around the damaged reactor 4 is expected to last for at least the next 100 years.

https://www.power-technology.com/features/making-chernobyl-safe-a-timeline/

https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/chernobyl-bg.html#sarco

I couldn't find any ready status on Reactor 4. It's my understanding the damage inside the sarcophagi is still to reactive to dismantle. Further, the damaged fuel rods have effectively melted into and welded itself throughout the core .

Russia

From recent information I could find, Russia's nuclear waste is on a whole other level; they have waste, reactors, fuel, plutonium at sites all over the country. There does seem to be a plan to operate a long-term storage depot in Krasnoyarsk, Siberia (Central Russia).

Other Countries

Several countries operated nuclear reactors. Above are just a handful.

 

[Skye]

Much of the discussion in this thread and others focused on prices and inflation. While the headline numbers on inflation are trending down and lower than previous, this number is something of a weighted average of the cost involving several sectors of the economy.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/15/heres-the-inflation-breakdown-for-december-2024-in-one-chart.html

So the reported number is about 3%, but as the breakdown shows, it's not 3% everywhere; this matters.

Eggs are an outlier. Bird flu has killed millions of chickens, is known to kill domestic cats, make wild cats sick, is now infecting beef and dairy cows and has affected other animals worldwide. The virus has spilled over to humans. Several farm and ranch hands have been confirmed infected, often with flu-like symptoms. One confirmed death in Louisiana (pre-existing conditions) and another hospitalized in Canada with significant respiratory issues. We don't hear about it much in the news, because farmers and the USDA don't want us to know. The topic isn't something you want to be promoting. If interested in the subject, please Google and study.

Coffee and cocoa (chocolate) are two others I'm aware of. Due to poor harvests, there is less product, less good product, than expected.

This site is data dense, but does provide very granular breakdowns of pricing. Use the search bar to google a specific topic or region.

https://data.bls.gov/dataQuery/find?st=0&r=20&s=title:A&fq=survey:[cu]&more=0

There's a simple, four-silo chart here. If you click on each of the silos, you can further breakdown specific sectors.

https://www.bls.gov/cpi/

This page allows you to view inflation-adjusted wages, aka real wages. The last few years have been volatile.

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0500000013?output_view=pct_12mths

What we label as inflation is complex. And if you work in one specific sector seeing a large increase in costs while wages are not going up, you're going to be struggling, some, significantly.

As with inflation, the wages number is an average of all of us. Some have done well, others OK, other still not so good. It depends on what your job is, what sector of the economy you work in.

Finally, there are external forces at-play. These are the ones I can immediately think of which will continue to bias inflation higher for what I believe years to come:

1. Rebuilding Los Angeles
2. Rebuilding the Carolinas
3. Rebuilding Ukraine
4. Rebuilding Gaza and Lebanon
5. Expanding or creating prisons and camps for US deportees
6. Reduced available labor in construction, service and hospitality sectors (see above)
7. US tax cuts
8. Lessened commodity and finished product availability from trade wars
10. Continued aging of US population
11. Continued lack of access to Suez Canal
12. Continued upward pressure on insurance rates
13. Increased defense spending
14. Increased healthcare spending
15. Compounding US GOV interest and debt
16. General infrastructure repair or replace (roads, bridges, power plants, water treatment)
17. Increasingly-destructive, weather-related events (crops, housing, businesses worldwide)

Edit,
18. Building, and later powering, crypto and AI initiatives.

Some of these points are happening now, going to happen or might happen; they will have direct and indirect impacts throughout the economy in the US and elsewhere.

I want to clarify the points above: they are not to dump on the current or incoming Administrations. I'm also not here to argue with anyone. They are topics I believe that have to be considered as to how they will affect the US economy going forward. They're points I'd like to be wrong about. These issues are complex, several of which we've been in denial of for decades. Many demand difficult decisions and years of support, nationwide.

 

[9secondko]

Ten pages?! I think we can do better than that.

Several comments earlier highlighted EV battery disposal processes, what's being done now. The following is some information I gathered on the topic.

EV Battery Recycling

Lithium is a fundamental element of the universe; it doesn't wear out. The element can be combined with others to form compounds (substance composed of two or more elements), but it can also be recovered from those compounds. The element is not broken or worn out in the process.

I'm attaching a doc I built on the S550 charging system, which references lead acid and lithium batteries, what they are made of and how they work.

There are challenges in recycling any material. Initial processes have been enhanced or abandoned in favor of new, quicker and more cost-effective measures. Those processes are still evolving, but they do exist and are in use here and other countries.

United States

I'm attaching several articles. EV battery recycling is already here, in the US. Plants exist in several states.

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uplo...-recycling-plants-in-the-United-States-v4.pdf

https://www.abiresearch.com/blog/ev-battery-recycling-in-us

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/

https://www.usa.ev-battery-recycling.com/

Europe

Plants open for recycling in Norway, Sweden and Poland, to name a few.

https://www.hydro.com/en/global/med...le-battery-recycling-plant-begins-operations/

https://www.electrichybridvehiclete...ttery-recycling-facility-opens-in-poland.html

https://www.stenarecycling.com/news...stry-scale-battery-recycling-plant-in-europe/

Asia

Plants are processing batteries in Singapore, South Korea and China.

https://mcsolutions.vn/singapore-battery-recycling-what-are-the-latest-developments/

https://www.chemanalyst.com/NewsAnd...-ev-lithium-ion-battery-recycling-plant-23999

https://www.statista.com/chart/32016/existing-and-planned-lithium-ion-battery-recycling-capacity/

Third World

While I'm not aware of abandoning batteries in developed countries, I am aware of the operating environment in third world countries.

Less-developed countries often have little to no environmental safeguards or laws in-place to protect citizens, water and land. We (the US and other countries) sometimes ship our environmental waste to these countries (the areas of West Africa, SouthEast Asia, to name two).

In the official statements, we "partner" with companies at these other locations. The reality is, it's more "out of sight. out of mind." Computing equipment, cabling, home electronics and other items of which it is economically unfeasible to recover anything worthwhile. In many locations, "processing" consists of lighting things on fire and seeing what comes about. Chemicals, often acids, can also be used. All this is done out in the open ground, in large dumps, or, facilities where the tailings are later dumped somewhere else.

It is possible we are sending trace elements and spent pieces from EVs to these other countries? Yes. How much, I cannot say. It's not a topic companies discuss in pubic forums.

There are 50 states and 3,000+ counties in the US. Different states have different disposal criteria for hazardous waste. In the US, there are plants which process and store hazardous waste, primarily chemicals, or chemically-contaminated soils (see East Palestine, OH). Study your state and the laws there.

And all of that amounts to a whopping total of… 5% being recycled. “Nope. No problem here.”

 

[BoostRabbitGT]

Does anyone here think Ford should reincorporate "commodity" vehicles into their lineup, but with a lot better build quality and curb/driving appeal? I'm curious to know if that would help or hurt the Mustang's future?

 

[9secondko]

Does anyone here think Ford should reincorporate "commodity" vehicles into their lineup, but with a lot better build quality and curb/driving appeal? I'm curious to know if that would help or hurt the Mustang's future?

Ford already sells commodity vehicles. The enthusiast vehicles, like the Mustang coupe or the Raptor tiers stand out. they shold reincorporate CARS though. Allow a brand new Mustang platform to be amortized more cost effectively and catch badk up with Hyundai, BMW, toyota, etc.

 

[Zig]

Ford already sells commodity vehicles. The enthusiast vehicles, like the Mustang coupe or the Raptor tiers stand out. they shold reincorporate CARS though. Allow a brand new Mustang platform to be amortized more cost effectively and catch badk up with Hyundai, BMW, toyota, etc.

A secretary’s car needs a secretary

 

[9secondko]

A secretary’s car needs a secretary

there are a whole bunch of new ones getting confirmed lately. Should help add to the pool.

 

[Zig]

there are a whole bunch of new ones getting confirmed lately. Should help add to the pool.

 

[Bikeman315]

Does anyone here think Ford should reincorporate "commodity" vehicles into their lineup, but with a lot better build quality and curb/driving appeal? I'm curious to know if that would help or hurt the Mustang's future?

No. Why you ask? Because there is no market for them in the US. Ford builds what sells, trucks and suvs. Battery power, like it or not, is the future. Our Mustang is the outlier, saved only by its iconic status. it will be gone sooner, than later. The die is cast and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. Maybe, just maybe once we finally “get” it, we can just go back to enjoying our cars.

 

[Zig]

.Battery power, like it or not,

Not. Battery is limited to the reaction, combustion is the reaction.

 

[Back2Gas]

I see people in this thread mentioning that Ford should make an EV on the current Mustang platform as a compromise. As someone who currently owns a Model 3 Performance with a 0-60 time in 2.9 seconds and a 1/4 mile in the high 10’s, an electric motor can never replace a V8. The entire driving feel is different, there is no driver engagement. No wheel spin, no gears changing, no rumble.

 

[Bikeman315]

I see people in this thread mentioning that Ford should make an EV on the current Mustang platform as a compromise. As someone who currently owns a Model 3 Performance with a 0-60 time in 2.9 seconds and a 1/4 mile in the high 10’s, an electric motor can never replace a V8. The entire driving feel is different, there is no driver engagement. No wheel spin, no gears changing, no rumble.

Of course it can’t replace a V8 or any ICE for that matter. But if comes down to our only option, what do we decide to do? An EV truck, SUV, or Mustang?

 

[Zig]

I see people in this thread mentioning that Ford should make an EV on the current Mustang platform as a compromise. As someone who currently owns a Model 3 Performance with a 0-60 time in 2.9 seconds and a 1/4 mile in the high 10’s, an electric motor can never replace a V8. The entire driving feel is different, there is no driver engagement. No wheel spin, no gears changing, no rumble.

More a result of programmatically modulating the rate of discharge vs the rate of building momentum.

 

[Zig]

Of course it can’t replace a V8 or any ICE for that matter. But if comes down to our only option, what do we decide to do? An EV truck, SUV, or Mustang?

Neither, ev personal transportation pod (read weather shell motorcycle - heck we’re only doing the daily commute, remember).

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