Dark Horse Mustang vs. C8 vs. M2 (Savage Geese Comparison Review)

[Paul's stable]

Easy philosophy.

You know that your car is making that number AT LEAST. That makes the real car enthousiast wonder how much it REALLY makes. So people go on dyno's to check what surprise they will get.

Unlike American cars claiming to have 486 horsepower for the GT and it will do 400hp on the dyno.

Do you understand the factory ratings are based on crank horsepower where a Dyno reads rear tire horsepower.

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[GrabThatBlue]

Do you understand the factory ratings are based on crank horsepower where a Dyno reads rear tire horsepower.

You totally missed the point.

When people talk about horsepower, they usually just throw the numbers without saying crank or wheel. Just look at most car review channels. They won't tell you crank or wheel, even when they compare different cars.

American car manufactures like to use the highest number possible. Higher numbers sell better.

 

[GrabThatBlue]

Do the other cars have those ridiculous carbon traps that the mustang has? I've watched a couple dyno results where just pulling out the carbon traps and using aftermarket air filters can free up 30 horsepower. That would put the coyote on par with the M2 number wise. Not bad for a cost free modification. 5-6% power gain.

Source: Trust me bro

 

[AZ_Ryan]

You totally missed the point.

When people talk about horsepower, they usually just throw the numbers without saying crank or wheel. Just look at most car review channels. They won't tell you crank or wheel, even when they compare different cars.

American car manufactures like to use the highest number possible. Higher numbers sell better.

Most American car enthusiasts throw around HP numbers as if that's the only number that matters too.

As the saying goes - "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."

 

[GrabThatBlue]

Most American car enthusiasts throw around HP numbers as if that's the only number that matters too.

As the saying goes - "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."

But we can't use the excuse like what Paul's Table said that Mustang is wheel horsepower.

Both BMW and Ford use crank horsepower.

 

[Deleted member 62674]

I well remember reading about him. Another automotive icon, as is the Corvette.
But, the Corvette struggled to compete worldwide with Euro exotica. Probably because it wasn't exotic enough, snobbishness, and not made in Europe syndrome.
I think that still applies to a degree. But doesn't seem to trouble Mustang sales too much.

I feel that it goes back to Chevy not turning Zora loose to do what he wanted to do. Ford turned Shelby loose and they won LeMans against the exotics with the GT40. Ironically, now that the Corvette is a mid-engine design, as proposed by Zora, Chevy now pays homage to him by putting his facial profile in the lower right hand side corner of the front windshield.

 

[ChitownStang]

30 HP from carbon traps?!

Not on an S650. The dynos show its maybe a couple HP at best. The twin throttle bodies flow much better than the S550. But even on a S550 that's ridiculous.

Agreed, couple HP on the traps, couple hp with h-pipe, couple hp with high flow filters and then consistent hp with e30.
That what I do and it feels stronger than stock for sure.

 

[Upacurb]

A few comments.....yes sometimes....I wonder how they are getting these dyno numbers......
Motor Trend got 494rwhp on a stock GT350 lol - yeah I know thats not right either
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2019-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350-dyno-results

So I have driven all 3 cars ......

1. The Dark Horse steering feel is MUCH superior to the GT (you dont think you are paying all that extra money for 14hp do you?)

2. I REALLY wanted to love the C8 but it was just .....numb......it was VERY quick but it was just.....soft/ too refined.....it went around corners fast - it accelerated fast - but the feels were just not there....

3. The BMW.....they have just lost their magic from years ago in my mind....I loved the E30s ...such incredible drivers car.....but they have just lost a little something - and the Dark Horse engine note is just far superior

My ranking would also be Dark Horse first ..... and ....well Im going back and forth on whether I would put the C8 or the BMW in second..... probably make the C8 second because the windshield/ view exc. is cool

 

[Fruitstang]

For those who did not watch the video and are discussing how much better HP numbers mentioned in the video are compared to advertised manufacturer values:
In that same video the presenters say these values might be off for some reason and should only serve for comparison between these three cars dynoed there at the same day.

 

[LouG]

Do the other cars have those ridiculous carbon traps that the mustang has? I've watched a couple dyno results where just pulling out the carbon traps and using aftermarket air filters can free up 30 horsepower. That would put the coyote on par with the M2 number wise. Not bad for a cost free modification. 5-6% power gain.

Was that the same dyno used on this video?

 

[LouG]

You totally missed the point.

When people talk about horsepower, they usually just throw the numbers without saying crank or wheel. Just look at most car review channels. They won't tell you crank or wheel, even when they compare different cars.

American car manufactures like to use the highest number possible. Higher numbers sell better.

Reviewers won't pull an engine out and bolt it to an engine dyno, and I don't completely trust inertia dyno caculations of crank HP either. I'm also amused when they do a dyno run to see how much power an older car has lost in X years. That's like estimating wind speed with a wet finger.
Just assume that it's whp when a reviewer quotes something.

 

[Kevi]

Was that the same dyno used on this video?

Maybe lol. I guess I wasn't thinking a lot of those youtube dyno runs could be click bait.

 

[GrabThatBlue]

Reviewers won't pull an engine out and bolt it to an engine dyno, and I don't completely trust inertia dyno caculations of crank HP either. I'm also amused when they do a dyno run to see how much power an older car has lost in X years. That's like estimating wind speed with a wet finger.
Just assume that it's whp when a reviewer quotes something.

I don't care about crank or wheel.
Both, BMW and Mustang are measured in crank, so there is no excuse.

Mustang likes to make the numbers higher than they are.
BMW likes to make the numbers lower then they are.

That's the whole point, which makes me conclude that Americans like to make things look better than it is, while Europeans want to make it at least look just as they advertise it.

 

[LouG]

I don't care about crank or wheel.
Both, BMW and Mustang are measured in crank, so there is no excuse.

Mustang likes to make the numbers higher than they are.
BMW likes to make the numbers lower then they are.

That's the whole point, which makes me conclude that Americans like to make things look better than it is, while Europeans want to make it at least look just as they advertise it.

OK. So don't you think the GT's 486 HP is real? One problem is all the different testing protocols for engine (crank) HP. Europe has DIN and KW, US uses SAE, BHP or, back in the day Gross HP, where all engine ancilliaries are not driven.
It's a minefield.
And, speaking of manufacturers BS, remember the release of the first Jag E Type? They claimed a top speed of 150mph. The problem was, none could get near that. Years later an engineer admitted that was a fairly highly modified one off.

 

[GrabThatBlue]

OK. So don't you think the GT's 486 HP is real? One problem is all the different testing protocols for engine (crank) HP. Europe has DIN and KW, US uses SAE, BHP or, back in the day Gross HP, where all engine ancilliaries are not driven.
It's a minefield.
And, speaking of manufacturers BS, remember the release of the first Jag E Type? They claimed a top speed of 150mph. The problem was, none could get near that. Years later an engineer admitted that was a fairly highly modified one off.

First of all, it's not that I don't believe that the claimed 486. That's also something I never said. I said Americans like to advertise high numbers and Europeans like to use numbers a driver should expect.

Second of all, HP is a general term, it can be literally everything, BHP, WHP, DIN or PS.

The most important thing is that Mustangs are measured in BHP, also in the United States, but they don't say BHP and only use the term HP.

BHP is measured at the crank. So even when American Mustangs don't use the BHP term but the general HP term, they mean it is measured by the crank wich makes it 486BHP.

Lastly, I'm sorry, but I really have a problem with this way of thinking by using exceptions to say that there are also European cars that make false HP claims.

What you did right here is an exception fallacy, using an outlier to define the norm doesn’t prove the point.

We are talking in general, that means we are talking about what European car brands in general do vs what American car brands in general do.

With your way of thinking, there are always a way to find exeptions on both sides.

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