Why's Ford not allowing people to tune the S650 Mustang?

[Deleted member 63967]

1. Lawyers always go after the deepest pockets meaning FORD.
2. You started off this chat saying if you were FORD, in that case you would have a very large sum of money in your bank account and you wouldn’t be on this chat site bringing up silly topics

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[Gregs24]

1. Lawyers always go after the deepest pockets meaning FORD.
2. You started off this chat saying if you were FORD, in that case you would have a very large sum of money in your bank account and you wouldn’t be on this chat site bringing up silly topics

Have you ever considered there are times when not posting is better than posting. Not sure you really added anything other than calling the OP silly! Was it worth it?

 

[Interstellar]

Ford never “allowed people to tune”.
In short, aftermarket tuning is cracking the encryption and safety measures put in place on the CPU to allow a user to alter factory values.
2015 security is tissue paper compared to modern computer security.
C8 corvettes had the same issue, and if I recall it took about 2 years to “crack” that ECU.
we’re just now approaching that 2 year mark with the S650s. I also imagine Ford tried a bit harder with their ECU security and here we are.

 

[MAT1955]

......as for stealing any on the newer cars just put an analogue kill switch in it. $500 will make it invisible and totally safe for your electronics and Ford will approve it. Half the nation of Ukraine can be on a Cray computer trying to hack your ride and they'll never start it. I have mentioned this on the platform before. Ford Corporate (in writing with a case number) gave me permission to install one. I haven't yet as I just pull a fuse if I'm in a sketchy area.

 

[roket]

dont count on tuning anytime soon. the 2024+ Mustang is what is called a "FNV" or Full Networked Vehicle, which is also what allows it to participate in OTA updates. the 2024 Mustang, along with the 2024 F-150, 2025 Expedition, 2025 Explorer, and other new Ford vehicles also have a new problem to deal with for tuning, TRON. that is the "Trusted Real-Time Operation Network" and is described by Ford as a "cyber security protocol applied to certain modules connected to the vehicle communication networks. This protocol provides a digital message authentication for data being communicated between modules on the networks, to make sure the data received by a module is the data sent by the sending module and has not been interrupted or tampered with by an outside source". here is all the information Ford shares about TRON:

"TRON secret data authentication security keys are applied to modules with motion control, safety critical and security critical functions. Not all modules on the vehicle will have data authentication security keys applied. The secret authentication security keys provide a digital data handshake between the sending module and the receiving module to confirm the data received has been sent by the expected source.

The initial secret authentication security key distribution takes place at the end of the production line, prior to the vehicle release to the dealer. The key update mechanism includes a key management client and key management server modules. The key management client is the GWM and the key management server modules are the modules participating in the TRON function. The GWM generates the keys and distributes them to itself and the server modules, one module at a time sequentially. The keys are processed by the receiving modules and stored in their memory and a backup of the distributed keys is stored in the TCU . After the vehicle's TRON has been successfully configured, the production line end of line tool sends a copy to the Ford backend data systems for storage.

If a TRON capable module is replaced, the module secret authentication security key must be applied to the new module so it functions on the network when installed. When replacing a TRON capable module, run the diagnostic scan tool TRON Module Authentication Diagnosis and Repair procedure to distribute a new set of secret authentication security keys to all TRON capable modules.

The GWM and the TRON capable modules can set Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) if the keys are misaligned between modules, there are communication issues on the vehicle network or a module is not responding.

The GWM acts as the key management client for the TRON system for creating, monitoring and distributing the secret keys to the participating modules.

The TCU stores a backup of all TRON distributed keys."

here is the TRON network for a 2025 Expedition:

it has the Restraints Control Module, Anti-Lock Braking System, Body Control Module, Powertrain Control Module, Transfer Case Control Module, Vehicle Dynamics Module, Telematics Control Unit, Remote Function Actuator, Headlamp Control Module, Image Processing Module A, Power Steering Control Module, Steering Column Control Module, Gear Shift Module, Driver's Door Module, and Passenger Door Module.

we got off lucky with a much, much smaller TRON network, likely aided by the fact the S650 is a modified S550, and Ford didnt want to completely re-do the Mustang like they did the Explorer and Expedition, but wanted the security. so these are the modules they could justify putting on a TRON network

we only have the Anti-Lock Braking System, Powertrain Control Module, Telematics Control Unit, Power Steering Control Module, and Image Processing Module A

some other stuff about the TRON network:
- a module can only be programmed with so many keys before it must be replaced
- the mentioned "TRON Module Authentication Diagnosis and Repair procedure" requires a connection to a specific TRON server within Ford, and it seems like Ford might be playing favorites with how well this connection even goes
- it is unknown if a TRON issue can cause a no-start condition

of course, this is all speculation. TRON could have no effect on tuning, as it seems to be more of a way to force the use of genuine parts and control who can re-program certain modules. we will have to see what the conclusion is after this is cracked

 

[Gregs24]

dont count on tuning anytime soon. the 2024+ Mustang is what is called a "FNV" or Full Networked Vehicle, which is also what allows it to participate in OTA updates. the 2024 Mustang, along with the 2024 F-150, 2025 Expedition, 2025 Explorer, and other new Ford vehicles also have a new problem to deal with for tuning, TRON. that is the "Trusted Real-Time Operation Network" and is described by Ford as a "cyber security protocol applied to certain modules connected to the vehicle communication networks. This protocol provides a digital message authentication for data being communicated between modules on the networks, to make sure the data received by a module is the data sent by the sending module and has not been interrupted or tampered with by an outside source". here is all the information Ford shares about TRON:

"TRON secret data authentication security keys are applied to modules with motion control, safety critical and security critical functions. Not all modules on the vehicle will have data authentication security keys applied. The secret authentication security keys provide a digital data handshake between the sending module and the receiving module to confirm the data received has been sent by the expected source.

The initial secret authentication security key distribution takes place at the end of the production line, prior to the vehicle release to the dealer. The key update mechanism includes a key management client and key management server modules. The key management client is the GWM and the key management server modules are the modules participating in the TRON function. The GWM generates the keys and distributes them to itself and the server modules, one module at a time sequentially. The keys are processed by the receiving modules and stored in their memory and a backup of the distributed keys is stored in the TCU . After the vehicle's TRON has been successfully configured, the production line end of line tool sends a copy to the Ford backend data systems for storage.

If a TRON capable module is replaced, the module secret authentication security key must be applied to the new module so it functions on the network when installed. When replacing a TRON capable module, run the diagnostic scan tool TRON Module Authentication Diagnosis and Repair procedure to distribute a new set of secret authentication security keys to all TRON capable modules.

The GWM and the TRON capable modules can set Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) if the keys are misaligned between modules, there are communication issues on the vehicle network or a module is not responding.

The GWM acts as the key management client for the TRON system for creating, monitoring and distributing the secret keys to the participating modules.

The TCU stores a backup of all TRON distributed keys."

here is the TRON network for a 2025 Expedition:

it has the Restraints Control Module, Anti-Lock Braking System, Body Control Module, Powertrain Control Module, Transfer Case Control Module, Vehicle Dynamics Module, Telematics Control Unit, Remote Function Actuator, Headlamp Control Module, Image Processing Module A, Power Steering Control Module, Steering Column Control Module, Gear Shift Module, Driver's Door Module, and Passenger Door Module.

we got off lucky with a much, much smaller TRON network, likely aided by the fact the S650 is a modified S550, and Ford didnt want to completely re-do the Mustang like they did the Explorer and Expedition, but wanted the security. so these are the modules they could justify putting on a TRON network

we only have the Anti-Lock Braking System, Powertrain Control Module, Telematics Control Unit, Power Steering Control Module, and Image Processing Module A

some other stuff about the TRON network:
- a module can only be programmed with so many keys before it must be replaced
- the mentioned "TRON Module Authentication Diagnosis and Repair procedure" requires a connection to a specific TRON server within Ford, and it seems like Ford might be playing favorites with how well this connection even goes
- it is unknown if a TRON issue can cause a no-start condition

of course, this is all speculation. TRON could have no effect on tuning, as it seems to be more of a way to force the use of genuine parts and control who can re-program certain modules. we will have to see what the conclusion is after this is cracked

In the draft Euro 7 regulations in Europe, which never happened, too much tampering with certain modules relating to emissions would have resulted in a warning that the car will not restart after 'n' further starts to immobilise the vehicle safely. It was not implemented but fits in with your post above.

 

[Zig]

Integration of systems allows potential for unintended consequences resulting in the possibility of non compliance. If the engine and transmission ‘systems’ stood alone it would be more akin to the ‘off-road’ completely tuneable version but since built for the masses and not the individual the mass is what is used to calculate the ‘credits’ and implenentation of common safety systems required by law when used on public roadways during open usage.

 

[Cauf E. Bean]

I'd venture to say this is mostly an EPA issue. The EPA is tightening the screws down on vehicle manufactures. Here's some of my thoughts (opinions).

1. The EPA is smart enough to know that Ford has the money and technology to make their ECU's darn near uncrackable.

HAHAHA - Any software can be cracked; Apple learned this the hard way; and then ironically as time passed, there was less and less reason to do so because Apple incorporated the functions that hackers/hobbyists were trying to add.​

So if any software can be cracked, why hasn't it been done to the S650 yet?​

• This is where the real numbers are at play - hackers don't typically work on ECUs - they're more focused on websites and mobile applications. So you've got a much smaller collection of people with the talent to do it - and two:
• The numbers aren't significant enough yet to make the effort worthwhile for the return on investment. In North America, approximately 49,000 Ford Mustang S650s (all variants) have been sold. That's the TOTAL U.S. sales for the seventh-generation Mustang, which includes model years 2024+.
  • The numbers gets even smaller when you start carving out the population of S650 owners who really want to tune it beyond its factory capabilities. Let's assume it's 10% of S650 owners who want to get a tune - that's roughly 5,000 possible customers who are willing to spend money for a tune at some point in the future.
  • But then again, there's that wonderful warranty to worry about. So of the 5,000 possible customers for an aftermarket tune, how many are willing to do it now, today, and forgo their existing 3-year 30,000 mile safety net? I'm still betting on the lower side, so let's again say 10% - now you're down to just 500 people who would be willing to pony up money today for a tune on a car with less than two calendar years of production in motion.

2. Ford is smart enough to be aware of 1. above.

• I agree, Ford is smart enough to understand the economy of scale we spoke about above; and by building out a few controlled mods and upgrades that come with Factory tunes, they get the lion's share of the business of the original 5,000 potential upgrade prospects - because their solution doesn't void the warranty. Even after the ECU is unlocked, they'll still get a sizeable share of the upgrade dollars because of this benefit.
• Ford doesn't care diddly-boo about EPA or lawsuits (as it relates to this topic) because 1) they already have a building full of lawyers on staff (i.e., employees - paid for whether they're utilized or not) to manage any litigation issues and 2) Ford has gone above and beyond to make it difficult, meaning anyone who proceeds at their own risk has assumed the liability from Ford for doing something they a) told you not to do, b) made very difficult for you to do, and c) voided your warranty as penalty for doing what they told you not to do and made very difficult to accomplish.

3. I imagine the EPA would come down rather hard on Ford if they made their ECU's easy to "jailbreak" which in turn would allow "turners" easy pickings.

• To put things in perspective, the EPA has been working aggressively since 2020 to stop the manufacturer and sale of Defeat Devices, issuing nearly $55 million in fines (mostly against diesel defeats). The U.S. automotive aftermarket industry size was estimated at USD 205.81 Billion in 2022 and 213.39 billion in 2023, meaning that the EPA has issued a massive 0.0131% of the industry value as disincentivizing fines. This shows us that the EPA has had very little teeth to date; yes, some wins and yes Cobb took a markdown on their quarterly profits because of it - but that was a rarity. Now, under the current administration we can expect the EPA to be less bark and less bite. Cobb may not have had a leg to stand on in defense of their software since it was developed to defeat existing protections, but Ford was at least arms distance away from the heat. That's a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT than what Volkswagen did inside their own company, deliberately and maliciously with the sole intent to sell cars that didn't meet the emission regulations for a manufacturer. Not apples to apples at all.

4. I don't see this as a money grab by Ford.

• Once again, I completely agree - Ford recognizes that there is a market for early adopters who want more; but they didn't take the risk on themselves, they got partners to do it. Between now and whenever the software firewall falls, they get to brag about factory aftermarket hotrod support, they get good press, and all while they scratch the itch for that small 1% market who's ready to buy before the outlaws come to town.
• Once the population of S650s is sufficient enough for the economics to make it irresistible, after-market sales will drive further interest in the Mustang brand (so Ford wins again), and the carrot of a factory warranty on Ford Authorized tunes will still drive people toward the Whipple solution. Let's be really honest here: there's only so many people who want a modern machine to be their weekend dragstrip car - and we are inside our own echo chamber here; much, much different than the 'average' Mustang buyer/owner.
  Modern cars are bad choices to mod for racing, anyway; It's too hard to work around all the electronic hurdles (even if they're cracked) because the entire system is an integrated pain in the passing lane. Much easier to take the money and put it into a 10-year old pony where the restrictions to four-digit horsepower are readily and easily solved.

5. How can this be a giant money grab given the low number of Mustang sales?

• DING DING DING!

6. Many on this forum have posted about # 5. above.

• Unfortunately, this is the same audience that has self-identified as drooling over the possibility of the open tunes. I mean that as a compliment to this forum and its members - we're petrol heads and we tend to think of "fast" as "not fast enough". But if you head over to one of the 1,000+ mustang owner groups on Facebook, it's very, very rare that you see these types of conversations in those general collections of Mustang owners.

7. I imagine the percentage of Mustang owners who modify their cars heavily is probably pretty small. For sake of guessing let's say 10%. I don't think Ford's make or break strategy is based on 10% of Mustang sales that are reportedly very low. I'm not talking about cosmetic mods like, wheels, graphics, carbon fiber, window tint etc.

• Since I've said the same it should be obvious that I agree. However, I think the obstacles are less about what Ford wants or doesn't want, and more about the economics of the aftermarket that has to do the heavy lifting to break the encryption, create the mappings, test it, etc. The earliest solutions will see solid returns because of the exclusivity of them having it and no one else; but that barrier will fall as soon as the machines are available in public because a 'cracked encryption' is unencrypted - meaning anyone who's handy with machine code can copy the solution without any barriers at all.

I'll close with this thought. It would be nice to see Ford spread their efforts out more evenly i.e., refine Q.C. to the same level as their "locked" ECU which they seem to have "nailed".

It's been a good think-through; thank you for kicking this off with your thoughts. I will close with a bit of a counter point, though I'm still 100% aligned with you. The distinction I'll spend my calories in making is this: Ford isn't an aftermarket company. They make shiny new machines, some with frugality and function as the primary selling point, some with style and speed, and some exclusive to race purposes. Ford is protecting their intellectual property, yes, but more importantly they're keeping the idiots out of the sandbox. When the smart kids come along with their smart tunes that actually make the vehicle better, Ford isn't going to be competing with them for sales; they'll smile quietly as they know such capabilities just makes the market for their products all the more exciting for their prospective buyers.​

​

At some point in the near future, the economies of scale will create an urgency to crack the codes. We (those of us in this forum who are in search of these solutions well ahead of the bell curve) are such a small population that Ford, no matter how loud we scream, can't even hear our complaints.​

Again, this is just my opinion.

Which I am very happy to second.​

 

[8LAKK8UNSHINE]

Interesting. I just wish manufactureers would make cars as hard to steal as they are to tune. I'm not worried about someone hacking into my Mustang to take control of my car while I'm driving. I'm concerned about it disappearing while I'm shopping at the grocery store.

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