Horsepower wars and "how much is too much"?

[Upacurb]

@Upacurb
I leave traction control on, at low and mid level throttle input they hold perfectly fine, if I’m on the freeway and go WOT, say 60 or 70 they’ll spin, but the car pulls real hard, it will get squirrely up to 100 ish

I barely ever do that, when I put the slicks on it just flat out hooks, if they spin at all the recovery is nearly instant.

my old fox body was the same, but the solid axle would kick out, get a lil sideways at 100, I’m just getting too old to be wild like that.

Nice ....sounds better then the one I drove lol

They closed down all the drag strips with a few 100 miles of me a long time ago and with two teenage daughters i just have other stuff going on... I dont have time to make weekends out of it ...

For a pure street car that will never see the track I think my car is about right

I had a 347/novi2000 fox body back in the day ... on the street was a handful.....im with you on the too old comment for sure lol

In fact fun fact... I bought my car from Paxton directly so my car was on the NOVI2000 instruction manual lol

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[Racer57]

I have a 1970 Plymouth Cuda 335hp with pistol grip shifter. Old school with muscle car power. Really fun to drive.

Also a 2025 Shelby 810 hp. Computerized fun.

 

[mthx]

Power with agility — that's the sweet spot for me.

I don't think we need 1,000, 1,500 or 2,400 hp cars. Of course, it always depends on weight.

Give me 500–550 hp in a well-balanced 3,600 lb car, with great steering, brakes and chassis, and I'm happy. That's already a seriously fast and fun street car.

The problem is that modern cars have become so damn heavy with all the comfort, technology and goodies that we keep adding horsepower just to compensate for the weight.

And let's be real: how often do we actually do a 0–60 launch in everyday life? Almost never.

But there is one problem...

The ego-destroying 60–120 mph pull.

You're enjoying your perfectly balanced, lightweight, 500 hp sports car on a nice open road...

Then some guy in a Civic pulls beside you.

PSSSHHHHHT.

He's running 750 hp.

Three seconds later you're staring at his taillights thinking:

"Yeah... but mine is better in the corners."

And THAT is probably why the horsepower war will never end.

 

[Upacurb]

Power with agility — that's the sweet spot for me.

I don't think we need 1,000, 1,500 or 2,400 hp cars. Of course, it always depends on weight.

Give me 500–550 hp in a well-balanced 3,600 lb car, with great steering, brakes and chassis, and I'm happy. That's already a seriously fast and fun street car.

The problem is that modern cars have become so damn heavy with all the comfort, technology and goodies that we keep adding horsepower just to compensate for the weight.

And let's be real: how often do we actually do a 0–60 launch in everyday life? Almost never.

But there is one problem...

The ego-destroying 60–120 mph pull.

You're enjoying your perfectly balanced, lightweight, 500 hp sports car on a nice open road...

Then some guy in a Civic pulls beside you.

PSSSHHHHHT.

He's running 750 hp.

Three seconds later you're staring at his taillights thinking:

"Yeah... but mine is better in the corners."

And THAT is probably why the horsepower war will never end.

Or the 6 billion Tesla Plaids around here in Southern CA lol

Back in the 90s you had to work at it to have a fast car- you had to know cars
Now you have housewifes driving around 9 second Tesla Plaids - any yahoo with a good job can buy an 800hp Mustang......or an 800hp Hell Cat - or hell even a Hyundai EV thing (not saying everyone who buys one is a yahoo but there are definitely people around here who barely know anything about cars but get into some kind of midlife crisis)

I think speed is so obtainable now its almost boring - it doesnt interest me anymore
I dont want to spend time blood tears to build a 9 second car just to get beat by a mom in a Plaid that drives it through the gas station car washes with some stupid personalized plate about being an EV or not using gas

Unless your going to build a 1200-1400hp car- but at that point its so not useable on the streets who cares....

So crazy how 20 years ago- adjusting for inflation if you told me I could buy a 9 second car used for 55-60K in todays dollars- I wouldnt have cared if it was EV gas or powered by peanut butter - but now no interest

 

[RYTBER]

Back in 2018 I had a wide body hellcat challenger. Ordered it and waited and actually was able to get it with a manual transmission.
Coolest car I ever had the good fortune to own. But I did come to learn that HP was completely overkill. So much so that it became a detraction from the car. I had 315 tires all around and there was simply no way I could jump on the car and not set it out of control.
I remember watching a great video on YouTube. It was a guy who owned both a hellcat and a scat pack. He was saying that the hellcat was great for the track and that the scat pack was such a better car to drive daily. His point being that the car was looking to get out of control at every opportunity.
That was when I learned that insane hp may be ridiculous.
If your tire setup (like drag radials) isn’t right, or you don’t have anywhere to drive it, it can actually become a liability.
That car was the only one I ever drove that I was afraid to “jump on it” because going out of control was a virtual guarantee.
Again however I say “it simply was the most amazing car I’ve ever owned”

 

[Zig]

Hhhhmmmm???? A companion question/conundrum is how little driver skill is too little?

I have a family member who spun their rust bucket 1974 Nova out; while turning left
at a corner in the rain.

Forum: So, how'd that end, Wiley?

Wiley: Did you know rust bucket Novas don't climb utility poles worth a $hit?

Minor bumps and bruises; no serious injury. Family members explanation for their profound lack of skill and judgement? It was because of those $hitty tires (which; oddly, were the ONLY new things on the rust bucket).

Probably a good thing my ex spurt driver family member wasn't driving one of those 1400 HP cars @Q6543 was telling us about.

Nannie, is that you?

 

[tastetickles]

Depends on the driver and the chassis. What Porsche did right has always been their ability to put the power down despite their hp. This is more apparent with Ford constantly showcasing the GTD against the Corvette and Porsche and it is a very healthy competition.

On the driver skills side (or lack thereof) AWD with torque vectoring made it extremely easy for this to happen. Even BMW is putting XDrive on their M2, its just more accessible and safer on public road for the average joe. One could be skilled enough to save the car on a road course but on public road things happen where there isn't enough room for complex maneuver for the average joe.

This off course is a double edged sword, I'd been spoilt by my sti followed by my Focus RS's traction so much so I realized I needed to up my driving skill. Started driving all cars in Normal mode for the linear throttle and relearn how to apply throttle at higher resolution instead of the #### mode with lots of torque demand at early throttle pedal travel. Built a sim rig too to relearn faster counter steering maneuver.

 

[Q6543]

Just came back from dream cruise, I saw SOOO many new Shelby GT350s and Rs on the strip

They get so much hate in these forums, but I couldn’t believe how many new Shelby’s I saw, also Josh and Jase were cruising in the new DH SC vert.

 

[robvas]

The C8/Hellcat cruise?

 

[IceGamer]

I think it is important to differentiate between EVs and gas powered cars. The acceleration of a model 3 performance is too much for 99% of drivers. Launching the car with full throttle leaves almost no room for mistakes or enough time to react to anything that's happening in front of you, like someone on a bike appearing out of nowhere... In that case one shouldn't have launched the car but average joe is average joe for a reason...
Beyond 50 or 60 miles that car is seriously slow but the Tesla plaid or the new Chinese EV kings (Denza, Zeekr, Xiaomi etc) have 1500+ HP and they keep accelerating... If the drivers is focussed on not loosing hold of the steering wheel instead of focusing on the road it is too much power for the average driver.

With gas cars it's different. First and foremost the power isn't instantly delivered and in today's world there are enough electronic angels guiding the output. I haven't heard of any new widow maker in the last 20 years... The last was the Carrera GT. So if loosing traction isn't a big deal anymore then what's left?
-->reckless driving ... At least in almost every country except Germany. One cannot account for stupidity and having a 1 billion HP can never be the excuse for doing stupid things.

Yes, there are stock gas cars with 600hp but they are absolutely manageable due to electronics. Yes, there are exotic cars with 1000+HP but as of right now they are reserved for the rich and wealthy 1% and then there are the self created monsters with 2000+HP but I would I would feel much safer in such a car when the one who built it drives it than average joe in his 200hp car.

 

[robvas]

The acceleration of a model 3 performance is too much for 99% of drivers.

They leave the line drama free and go where you point them.

Beyond 50 or 60 miles that car is seriously slow

Seriously slow? What? The current Model 3 Performance goes 11.0 @ 125mph. That'll dust any production Mustang other than the DH SC

100mph in 6.8 seconds
130mph in 12.3
150mph in 18.3 seconds

What's the manual 2024 Mustang GT run?

100 mph: 9.5 sec
1/4-Mile: 12.5 sec @ 114 mph
130 mph: 16.5 sec
150 mph: 23.5 sec

Even the previous Model 3 Performance wasn't "seriously slow".

11.5 seconds at 117.3 mph

I think you're thinking about the Mach E.

Yes, there are stock gas cars with 600hp but they are absolutely manageable due to electronics.

I'd say the opposite is true.

 

[armyGT]

At my age, I've been there and done that with cars. I used to be a big BOWTIE FAN. When Chevy bought out the V-8, it was fast, it was fun, and it was something that made the tri-five Chevy so popular. Next up was the Pontiac GTO. It was fast and the sound of the 3 Deuces opening up was just pure music. The 60's cars had style, class, and were quick. 0-60 back then in 6 seconds was fast. Today most 4 banger SUV's will keep up with old muscle.
So where are we at today? I see a car with an I-pad as a dash, an exterior that looks like a jelly bean on four wheels, a car that has no personality....but it has 800 horsepower that in most cases will never get used. IMHO, after 400 hp, the car isn't fun or safe to drive on a daily basis.

 

[IceGamer]

They leave the line drama free and go where you point them.


Seriously slow? What? The current Model 3 Performance goes 11.0 @ 125mph. That'll dust any production Mustang other than the DH SC

100mph in 6.8 seconds
130mph in 12.3
150mph in 18.3 seconds

What's the manual 2024 Mustang GT run?

100 mph: 9.5 sec
1/4-Mile: 12.5 sec @ 114 mph
130 mph: 16.5 sec
150 mph: 23.5 sec

Even the previous Model 3 Performance wasn't "seriously slow".

11.5 seconds at 117.3 mph

I think you're thinking about the Mach E.


I'd say the opposite is true.

You didn't get my point...

Pointing a car somewhere and not paying much attention is dangerous. My point was that average joe doesn't pay much attention to the road, social media and other stuff ist quite often more important than driving and in that case the model 3 performance is too much to handle as one cannot react properly to changing situations. If you cannot see these things happen you are most likely the kind of person I'm talking about without meaning to be rude or anything.

Regarding your numbers and my 'seriously slow' claim: obviously a model 3 performance isn't slow compared to most cars. But I was referring to speeds above 60 miles and to other performance cars. Start comparing the model 3 performance vs a 500 or 600hp gas car and above 60mph and the model 3 performance looks fairly slow.
Irrelevant for most drivers but for me, a German who drives 700km per week on the Autobahn it makes a huge difference.

 

[robvas]

Start comparing the model 3 performance vs a 500 or 600hp gas car and above 60mph and the model 3 performance looks fairly slow.
Irrelevant for most drivers but for me, a German who drives 700km per week on the Autobahn it makes a huge difference.

Which car specifically do you want to compare it to? I already did the 500hp Dark Horse.

2022 BMW M3

130 mph: 15.7 sec
150 mph: 21.9 sec

That's 3.5 seconds slower to 150mph than the current Model 3 Performance.

2026 BMW M2 CS

150 mph: 16.3 sec

Two seconds faster to 150mph. That's 'fairly slow'?

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