Auto Start/Stop killed by EPA rules deregulation

[Bikeman315]

So, obviously what we have to say on the topic is pointless so here is what some manufacturers, including Ford, are saying.......

EPA Says It's 'Killing' Stop-Start, and Here's What Automakers Have to Say

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...term=Car and Driver Flagship Sending Audience

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[smurfslayer]

Oh and the UK had quotas on Japanese cars in the 1970's and 1980's but it was easily overcome when Nissan, Toyota, Honda etc built plants in the UK.

Ditto for here, but we're both leaving out one key point. People had to get over their reticence to buy vehicles that had a reputation as "cheap".

Also, there was a long lingering anti-Jap sentiment here. That sentiment was omnipresent in the families and friends of WW2 veterans. As when I was pre-driving age, it was scandalous to buy a Jap car! This eased somewhat in the late 70's after the made up oil embargo, fuel rationing, and the response to it by people who didn't want to get burned again, and started looking away from the 12 mpg US offerings.

Also, IMO the Japanese car/truck/suv/minivan market took off here after the WW2 veterans started aging out, Jap manufacturers started offering vehicles more suited to American driver wants and needs, not a car fit for parking in Tokyo garages.

We like big trucks and I cannot lie...

Full disclosure: I have Japanese manufactured motorcycles.

So, obviously what we have to say on the topic is pointless so here is what some manufacturers, including Ford, are saying.......

EPA Says It's 'Killing' Stop-Start, and Here's What Automakers Have to Say

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70350799/epa-eliminating-stop-start-automaker-comments/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_cdb&utm_medium=email&date=021726&utm_campaign=nl01_021726_CDB44168745&oo=&GID=ed8c053c690b41d6e6ed99bc9c5d63000b285039b68b372c2f18ae26b22d79b1&user_email=ed8c053c690b41d6e6ed99bc9c5d63000b285039b68b372c2f18ae26b22d79b1&utm_term=Car and Driver Flagship Sending Audience

Holy Fúck! That Hyundai rep has a future in politics. Never have so many words been typed, expressing so little sentiment, and having so little meaning.

I read the Ford statement as hopeful; wanting one standard to build for. There have been rumblings about telling CARB to F*** off, and establishing a more nationwide standard along the EPA lines, undercutting California's CARB and rendering them powerless. I hope that's where this goes as there are some states who "marry" their standards to California.

 

[Gregs24]

Ditto for here, but we're both leaving out one key point. People had to get over their reticence to buy vehicles that had a reputation as "cheap".

I'm not sure Japanese cars were 'cheap' at least not here in the UK. What they were was reliable and very well engineered. They did rust badly but obviously so did UK made cars at the time.

Korean cars were 'cheap' here (and nasty) when they first started to be sold but very quickly that changed.

Chinese cars are 'cheaper' but are pretty high quality, or at least as good as equivalents. What they really lack is the driving dynamics of European cars but that can quickly change I'm sure.

It is amazing how quickly people get over that reticence when it is their back pocket being affected. It never happens overnight but it would be very interesting to look forward 20 years and see where it goes.

 

[Zig]

Ditto for here, but we're both leaving out one key point. People had to get over their reticence to buy vehicles that had a reputation as "cheap".

Also, there was a long lingering anti-Jap sentiment here. That sentiment was omnipresent in the families and friends of WW2 veterans. As when I was pre-driving age, it was scandalous to buy a Jap car! This eased somewhat in the late 70's after the made up oil embargo, fuel rationing, and the response to it by people who didn't want to get burned again, and started looking away from the 12 mpg US offerings.

Also, IMO the Japanese car/truck/suv/minivan market took off here after the WW2 veterans started aging out, Jap manufacturers started offering vehicles more suited to American driver wants and needs, not a car fit for parking in Tokyo garages.

We like big trucks and I cannot lie...

Full disclosure: I have Japanese manufactured motorcycles.



Holy Fúck! That Hyundai rep has a future in politics. Never have so many words been typed, expressing so little sentiment, and having so little meaning.

I read the Ford statement as hopeful; wanting one standard to build for. There have been rumblings about telling CARB to F*** off, and establishing a more nationwide standard along the EPA lines, undercutting California's CARB and rendering them powerless. I hope that's where this goes as there are some states who "marry" their standards to California.

quote:
"Start‑stop technology has never been federally mandated, and the EPA’s recent action removes regulatory incentives associated with it rather than prohibiting its use. Hyundai continues to comply with all applicable emissions regulations and regularly evaluates vehicle technologies based on customer feedback, regulatory requirements, and overall efficiency. At this time, we will continue to assess future developments as regulations evolve."

Interpretation:
"Xyz technology has never been federally mandated, and the blah blah recent action removes regulatory incentives associated with it rather than prohibiting its use. Hyundai continues to comply with all applicable emissions regulations and regularly evaluates vehicle technologies based on customer feedback, regulatory requirements, and overall efficiency. At this time, we will continue to assess future developments as regulations evolve."

 

[robvas]

Don't forget those Chinese companies can also build cars in the US at some point too, which gets around any tariffs or other restrictions. If that seems unlikely, remember Geely own Volvo who have a plant in the US already, it is very easy when you already own the plant to start production of other brands they own including under their own name. They platform share already within the Geely group so it would be VERY easy.

Guess who Ford is supposedly talking to?

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...echnology-partnership-sources-say-2026-02-04/

 

[agreywolfe]

Maybe - maybe not. Neither of us have a crystal ball.

What I would say is China exported 8.8 million cars in 2025, up 30% on 2024, whether they need to expand or not, they are doing very quickly. I realise this is not to the US (yet) but just consider the scale of that, double the Ford production globally was exported in pure numbers!

Don't forget those Chinese companies can also build cars in the US at some point too, which gets around any tariffs or other restrictions. If that seems unlikely, remember Geely own Volvo who have a plant in the US already, it is very easy when you already own the plant to start production of other brands they own including under their own name. They platform share already within the Geely group so it would be VERY easy.

Chinese EVs … made in the USA? | Lowy Institute

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Oh and the UK had quotas on Japanese cars in the 1970's and 1980's but it was easily overcome when Nissan, Toyota, Honda etc built plants in the UK.

Volvo, for now, has independence from Geely. While it does have a US factory don't forget, Huawei also had a US based R&D facility and had a big presence in the tech scene. Now it's nowhere because of a ban from the government, like I said, the US views China as a hostile entity, and since most companies report directly to the CCP, the US does not like those companies.

 

[LouG]

i dont think China is as big of a problem as you make them out to be. Not to say they arent a powerhouse, but specifically for the US market China has a bunch of things working against them that Japan and Korea had working for them. first off is China is a longstanding economic adversary to the US. multiple administrations (NOT BEING POLITICAL) have passed tariffs and import restrictions on Chinese goods whereas Japan and Korea started without those. additionally China has a massive domestic market rivaling that of the US, they have less need to expand globally like Japan and Korea did, lastly Chinas on an economic slowdown similar to what we saw with Japan in the 90's, thats only going to get exasperated with the upcoming population collapse resulting from the one child policy.

One child for each couple in a population of 1.7 billion is one hell of a growing market.

 

[LouG]

Ditto for here, but we're both leaving out one key point. People had to get over their reticence to buy vehicles that had a reputation as "cheap".

Also, there was a long lingering anti-Jap sentiment here. That sentiment was omnipresent in the families and friends of WW2 veterans. As when I was pre-driving age, it was scandalous to buy a Jap car! This eased somewhat in the late 70's after the made up oil embargo, fuel rationing, and the response to it by people who didn't want to get burned again, and started looking away from the 12 mpg US offerings.

Also, IMO the Japanese car/truck/suv/minivan market took off here after the WW2 veterans started aging out, Jap manufacturers started offering vehicles more suited to American driver wants and needs, not a car fit for parking in Tokyo garages.

Ditto here. When the Jap boom started in the 70's a lot of middle aged guys swore blind they'd never buy a car from those murdering blank blanks.
But quality and price won out pretty quickly. And Toyota NZ ran brilliant ads featuring Kiwi to the core, Barry Crump. He's what you guys would call a good ol boy.

 

[GeekGT5.0]

So, obviously what we have to say on the topic is pointless so here is what some manufacturers, including Ford, are saying.......

EPA Says It's 'Killing' Stop-Start, and Here's What Automakers Have to Say

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70350799/epa-eliminating-stop-start-automaker-comments/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_cdb&utm_medium=email&date=021726&utm_campaign=nl01_021726_CDB44168745&oo=&GID=ed8c053c690b41d6e6ed99bc9c5d63000b285039b68b372c2f18ae26b22d79b1&user_email=ed8c053c690b41d6e6ed99bc9c5d63000b285039b68b372c2f18ae26b22d79b1&utm_term=Car and Driver Flagship Sending Audience

Yup, ford was pretty much "meh" on it. Because it really doesn't mean anything for anyone, because it's future based anyway.

" pointing out that the EPA's rule changes simply remove incentives for automakers to use this technology, rather than banning it: "Start‑stop technology has never been federally mandated"

Ford got the credits, you know it was under contract.

Ford will not go back, make an update for 2026 and older cars to remove ASS. It would cost money, most likely someone would sue, Ford isn't going to take on that headache no one will. If your car has it now, it's gonna have it for the rest of it's life.

 

[Zig]

Yup, ford was pretty much "meh" on it. Because it really doesn't mean anything for anyone, because it's future based anyway.

" pointing out that the EPA's rule changes simply remove incentives for automakers to use this technology, rather than banning it: "Start‑stop technology has never been federally mandated"

Ford got the credits, you know it was under contract.

Ford will not go back, make an update for 2026 and older cars to remove ASS. It would cost money, most likely someone would sue, Ford isn't going to take on that headache no one will. If your car has it now, it's gonna have it for the rest of it's life.

Lookup seat belt interlock.

they don’t leverage credits to break even they use them to turn a profit, which means it costs to implement and without an incentive the customer preference takes priority (otherwise they aint buying since they [the customer] don’t want it and the other guy don’t have it)

 

[Zig]

 

[GeekGT5.0]

Lookup seat belt interlock.

they don’t leverage credits to break even they use them to turn a profit, which means it costs to implement and without an incentive the customer preference takes priority (otherwise they aint buying since they [the customer] don’t want it and the other guy don’t have it)

"safety" recalls or otherwise is a different ball game.

Auto Start/Stop is not safety related (although I'd argue it is a dangerous system) Ford isn't going to change their code. It's an easy lawsuit. Someone will claim they paid for the system and ford took it away. LOL people will sue for anything these days.

Besides that, Ford infotainment/dash/etc programmers and designers are LAZY AF. Just down right lazy. I've been advocating for Ford to fix the aux gauges for months and they won't even acknowledge it's a problem. Naw just telling ya, Ford won't do crap, they won't remove it, they won't "add" an option to disable it.

Only new cars will get that option. Why would they do that for you, when it could be the reason you might buy new? Like I'm running a 2024, why wouldn't I just go buy a 2027? They think Long game, they are not thinking "Oh we need to go help those guys with a 2024 mustang" LMAO

Explain to me why my Jeep gladiator knows how to make gauge with values in the middle so I can actually see what it is, and ford...just drops the ball. Hell you can't even see what the coolant temp actually is in a GT premium. Just a dummy gauge that doesn't move

Nope, sorry man, i have zero hope Ford will fix/change anything on previous cars. Much less "non-important" vanity things.

 

[Zig]

"safety" recalls or otherwise is a different ball game.

Auto Start/Stop is not safety related (although I'd argue it is a dangerous system) Ford isn't going to change their code. It's an easy lawsuit. Someone will claim they paid for the system and ford took it away. LOL people will sue for anything these days.

Besides that, Ford infotainment/dash/etc programmers and designers are LAZY AF. Just down right lazy. I've been advocating for Ford to fix the aux gauges for months and they won't even acknowledge it's a problem. Naw just telling ya, Ford won't do crap, they won't remove it, they won't "add" an option to disable it.

Only new cars will get that option. Why would they do that for you, when it could be the reason you might buy new? Like I'm running a 2024, why wouldn't I just go buy a 2027? They think Long game, they are not thinking "Oh we need to go help those guys with a 2024 mustang" LMAO

Explain to me why my Jeep gladiator knows how to make gauge with values in the middle so I can actually see what it is, and ford...just drops the ball. Hell you can't even see what the coolant temp actually is in a GT premium. Just a dummy gauge that doesn't move

Nope, sorry man, i have zero hope Ford will fix/change anything on previous cars. Much less "non-important" vanity things.

Don’t forget, even the app is out of sync.

are you really trying to say they won’t let an optional software setting persist due to liability?

 

[BoostRabbitGT]

Do you think we'll ever see the return of budget/value car brands in the future? That is, new/revived brands with cars specifically made for the demographic willing to spend, I don't know, $10K-30K tops for a new car...or is that a dream long gone for the US market due to tech/safety regulations?

 

[GeekGT5.0]

Do you think we'll ever see the return of budget/value car brands in the future? That is, new/revived brands with cars specifically made for the demographic willing to spend, I don't know, $10K-30K tops for a new car...or is that a dream long gone for the US market due to tech/safety regulations?

We have it now. You can by a very good Toyota Carola for like 22-23k that has standard adaptive cruise control, etc.

The cars do exist.

Sports cars with a 400+ hp v8? mid 30s and it'll be baaaasic.

Half the reason i think we are at this point is because the automanufactures *USED* to cater to the customer. They knew there would be people ok without the extras. Roll up windows instead of power. etc. But the thing is, in the building of the car, it really doesn't cost much to put roll up windows or power windows. But it's one extra part you gotta store, move, inventory, install, so roll up windows are no longer a thing and it saves them money, but you'll still pay for the power windows and so what if you don't save 500 bux. No body is stressing on the maybe $2k that they add on cars for the "standard features".

I mean even in the 1990s is was not rare to see a car with roll up windows, manual locks and only a heater, no ac. When was the last time you saw A/C as an option? That's how they did cheap cars back then.

Yes, they could make them cheaper. Do we need digital screens, power locks, power windows, A/C? Nope, they could do it. But then how large is that market? tiny.

What you need is like another Ford to come along, that's hungry, willing to make base model cars. Ford will never really do it again. GM, dodge, etc Because there would be literally no profit on a 20k car that's made in america. Now if we get rid of unions, and we don't pay the guy who puts the seats in 150k /year yes, car prices could come down alot. The union price tag is hefty. It's why anything with a package (ie. GT Premium) will be in the 40-50k range and not the 20-30k range as it was in 2011 era. Literally paid $34k for a fully loaded GT gen 1 coyote.

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