Bent OEM wheels and LMR wheels. Can 18" fit on the DH Track package?

[w00tcamp]

Good morning everyone. I finally killed off the Pirelli Trofeo RS 180 TW tires that came on my car. 1 heat cycle too many - the center tread delaminated on one of them. So I went to get the tires unmounted and put PS4s tires on the OEM handling package wheels. I found that 3 out of 4 were significantly bent. I'm blown away that Ford put such garbage wheels on a car that is literally called the TRACK handling package. They've seen lots of track days, but haven't been abused beyond normal track use. They balanced out luckily, so they can still be street driven.

With that said, I put some Continental Extreme Contact Force 200 TW tires on a set of LMR's SVE DHP1 forged aluminum wheels, and found that 2 of those 4 were also bent! Slight, but definitely visible on the balancer. That kind of blew me away, because supposedly they are forged, and I've only ever used them on the street.

All this has me thinking of switching to 18" wheels for the track instead of 19"s. I want to get more meat in there, but I don't know of any 18" wheels that will clear the giant DH brakes. Has anyone had luck with 18"s on their DH?

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[Junkyard Dog]

There are definitely some 18" that will fit over it, as they design the barrel to extend away from centerline (so that the barrel gives more clearance than the 18" rim area would indicate, if that makes sense), but I do not know if any of the manufacturers will guarantee that it fits your Dark Horse's massive brake system.

The Apex VS-5RE 18" has a concave barrel design and is used on the Ford Racing Dark Horse R program (they use the stronger Enduro and not the lighter Sprint version), but I do not know whether they installed smaller brakes on the Dark Horse R.

Check out how the barrel looks:
https://apexwheels.com/wheels/forged/enduro-line/vs-5re

The owner's manual indicates the same size rotors and a Brembo 6 piston braking system.

https://www.fordracing.com/content/dam/fordracing/series/mustang-challenge/Files/_2024 Dark Horse R Manual 6-5-24.pdf

So maybe call Apex?



Questions - (sorry for asking you questions on a thread in which you are asking questions, but your post presents a unique opportunity for answers that I probably won't be able to get from others who do not have your experience):

Did the out of round wheels cause any symptoms, like shimmy or shiver while driving?

The Trofeo RS delaminated after "lots of track days." How many? Plenty of folks post on here that they have seriously reduced life and get slippery very quickly. My experience has been different, and mine seem to be lasting far longer than others. Here, however, I am talking about mileage, not track days. Mine have seen only one track day, but 6000 miles, and they still get sticky when hot (although, having bought the car in June, now that it is October, I have found that 50° weather means that the tires are very, very slippery).

Did you ever track the car with Trofeo RS tires when the weather was in the 50s (I see you are in Florida)? If so, what was that like?

Michelin PS4S - What size?

Did you track the car with Michelin PS4S? If so, how was it different from using the Trofeo RS tires?

Can you compare the Continental tires to the other two?

 

[robvas]

Are you dukes of hazarding over train tracks and shit? Why you dent so many wheels?

 

[Junkyard Dog]

 

[w00tcamp]

There are definitely some 18" that will fit over it, as they design the barrel to extend away from centerline (so that the barrel gives more clearance than the 18" rim area would indicate, if that makes sense), but I do not know if any of the manufacturers will guarantee that it fits your Dark Horse's massive brake system.

The Apex VS-5RE 18" has a concave barrel design and is used on the Ford Racing Dark Horse R program (they use the stronger Enduro and not the lighter Sprint version), but I do not know whether they installed smaller brakes on the Dark Horse R.

Check out how the barrel looks:
https://apexwheels.com/wheels/forged/enduro-line/vs-5re

The owner's manual indicates the same size rotors and a Brembo 6 piston braking system.

https://www.fordracing.com/content/dam/fordracing/series/mustang-challenge/Files/_2024 Dark Horse R Manual 6-5-24.pdf

So maybe call Apex?

I had this exact same thought - I was watching this video from Vorshlag the other day that went over that.

Questions - (sorry for asking you questions on a thread in which you are asking questions, but your post presents a unique opportunity for answers that I probably won't be able to get from others who do not have your experience):

Did the out of round wheels cause any symptoms, like shimmy or shiver while driving?

None that I felt.

The Trofeo RS delaminated after "lots of track days." How many? Plenty of folks post on here that they have seriously reduced life and get slippery very quickly. My experience has been different, and mine seem to be lasting far longer than others. Here, however, I am talking about mileage, not track days. Mine have seen only one track day, but 6000 miles, and they still get sticky when hot (although, having bought the car in June, now that it is October, I have found that 50° weather means that the tires are very, very slippery).

I think 4 full days and ~3000 road miles. So probably 12-16 heat cycles? I did find that in my last two sessions, which were at about 85 degrees F ambient at Homestead-Miami, they were a little bit more slippery. My braking zones got a little squirrely, with the car wiggling a bit. A bit easier to power oversteer out of turns as well.

Did you ever track the car with Trofeo RS tires when the weather was in the 50s (I see you are in Florida)? If so, what was that like?

Negative. Always way warmer than that in these parts.

Michelin PS4S - What size?
Did you track the car with Michelin PS4S? If so, how was it different from using the Trofeo RS tires?

305/30-19 front, 315/30-19 rear. I did not track MY car with those tires, but when I went to FPRS in Charlotte, I did track a dark horse with this exact tire setup. It was an excellent choice given the constraints of the school - they run in the wet, and on the weekend I was there, it was pouring rain for a huge chunk of the time. Made for a super stable wet tire. In the dry, it definitely doesn't compare to a 180/super 200 TW tire like the Trofeo RS, Cup 2/R etc.

Can you compare the Continental tires to the other two?

I can't. These are my first set of ECF's and I just mounted them. I purchased them based on https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/track-tire-buyers-guide/
I found a set of 295/30-19s for the front and 315/30-19s for the rear, for a great price from RaceTreads. If you compare the spec sheet, the 295/30-19s actually measure very close to the 305/30-19s for the Trofeo RS.
I'm going to run these for my next track tires because the price was right, and the Grassroots article suggests I will get a few more heat cycles than the Trofeos. I'm not actually racing or interested in getting perfect times so I just want to reduce my operating costs.

 

[smurfslayer]

So I went to get the tires unmounted and put PS4s tires on the OEM handling package wheels. I found that 3 out of 4 were significantly bent.

I put some Continental Extreme Contact Force 200 TW tires on a set of LMR's SVE DHP1 forged aluminum wheels, and found that 2 of those 4 were also bent!

How are you determining that these wheels are bent? 5 bent wheels out of 8?
Something isn't right. Have you backstopped this finding with another machine?
I understand you can do this pretty simply, but you do need to be 100% sure that whatever the wheel is turning on is true.

 

[w00tcamp]

How are you determining that these wheels are bent? 5 bent wheels out of 8?
Something isn't right. Have you backstopped this finding with another machine?
I understand you can do this pretty simply, but you do need to be 100% sure that whatever the wheel is turning on is true.

Based on watching the balancer rotating said wheels. It would be nice to watch them on another machine but so far that’s all I’ve got.

 

[robvas]

 

[Junkyard Dog]

I had this exact same thought - I was watching this video from Vorshlag the other day that went over that.



None that I felt.


I think 4 full days and ~3000 road miles. So probably 12-16 heat cycles? I did find that in my last two sessions, which were at about 85 degrees F ambient at Homestead-Miami, they were a little bit more slippery. My braking zones got a little squirrely, with the car wiggling a bit. A bit easier to power oversteer out of turns as well.


Negative. Always way warmer than that in these parts.


305/30-19 front, 315/30-19 rear. I did not track MY car with those tires, but when I went to FPRS in Charlotte, I did track a dark horse with this exact tire setup. It was an excellent choice given the constraints of the school - they run in the wet, and on the weekend I was there, it was pouring rain for a huge chunk of the time. Made for a super stable wet tire. In the dry, it definitely doesn't compare to a 180/super 200 TW tire like the Trofeo RS, Cup 2/R etc.


I can't. These are my first set of ECF's and I just mounted them. I purchased them based on https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/track-tire-buyers-guide/
I found a set of 295/30-19s for the front and 315/30-19s for the rear, for a great price from RaceTreads. If you compare the spec sheet, the 295/30-19s actually measure very close to the 305/30-19s for the Trofeo RS.
I'm going to run these for my next track tires because the price was right, and the Grassroots article suggests I will get a few more heat cycles than the Trofeos. I'm not actually racing or interested in getting perfect times so I just want to reduce my operating costs.

Thanks for the responses, and thank you for that video.

Interesting about the 18 x 12 wheel with the 315/30ZR18 Yokohama tire - I see it fits over the caliper, but could you actually run it on the track on that Dark Horse?

Since they ran it on their S550, I guess I will have to do more research to find out how well it fit. It looks like their S550 had aftermarket fenders that might be wider than stock.

Being able to run 18" wheels would open up a whole new range of tire possibilities for me.

 

[w00tcamp]

This was super educational!

 

[w00tcamp]

Thanks for the responses, and thank you for that video.

Interesting about the 18 x 12 wheel with the 315/30ZR18 Yokohama tire - I see it fits over the caliper, but could you actually run it on the track on that Dark Horse?

Since they ran it on their S550, I guess I will have to do more research to find out how well it fit. It looks like their S550 had aftermarket fenders that might be wider than stock.

Being able to run 18" wheels would open up a whole new range of tire possibilities for me.

I suspect not as my car is configured. However, I think with a little more camber and the right suspension components, maybe? I know with -2.5 deg front camber an 11” wide wheel will fit with appropriate offsets/spacers.

I agree - would love to be able to go with 18” wheels. Tires for 19s are a challenge.

 

[w00tcamp]

I suspect not as my car is configured. However, I think with a little more camber and the right suspension components, maybe? I know with -2.5 deg front camber an 11” wide wheel will fit with appropriate offsets/spacers.

I agree - would love to be able to go with 18” wheels. Tires for 19s are a challenge.

@Apex Wheels are you guys seeing any confirmed 18” fitments or interested in testing for such a fitment?

 

[D/\rK•650]

Good morning everyone. I finally killed off the Pirelli Trofeo RS 180 TW tires that came on my car. 1 heat cycle too many - the center tread delaminated on one of them. So I went to get the tires unmounted and put PS4s tires on the OEM handling package wheels. I found that 3 out of 4 were significantly bent. I'm blown away that Ford put such garbage wheels on a car that is literally called the TRACK handling package. They've seen lots of track days, but haven't been abused beyond normal track use. They balanced out luckily, so they can still be street driven.

With that said, I put some Continental Extreme Contact Force 200 TW tires on a set of LMR's SVE DHP1 forged aluminum wheels, and found that 2 of those 4 were also bent! Slight, but definitely visible on the balancer. That kind of blew me away, because supposedly they are forged, and I've only ever used them on the street.

All this has me thinking of switching to 18" wheels for the track instead of 19"s. I want to get more meat in there, but I don't know of any 18" wheels that will clear the giant DH brakes. Has anyone had luck with 18"s on their DH?

Are you determining the wheels are bent just from viewing them on the balancer with the naked eye only? Im not saying you don't know your stuff ,just that it can be tricky to see things like that sometimes it looks out of round but its not. But yes that is definitely odd I would say.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

A good overview to the Apex VS-5 line, which shows the barrel design clearly so that it is easy to see why an 18" might fit over the Dark Horse's enormous rotor and caliper. Also a good overview of the difference between flow formed and forged and the enduro.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Are you determining the wheels are bent just from viewing them on the balancer with the naked eye only? Im not saying you don't know you stuff ,just that it can be tricky to see things like that sometimes it looks out of round but its not. But yes that is definitely odd I would say.

@w00tcamp , Do you still have the original wheels and the DHP1 wheels that you declared bent? I ask because maybe you can doublecheck your conclusion with instruments and measuring. I find it odd that you did not feel in vibration or anything if the wheels were truly bent. Also, you said you had the forged DHP1, which should be stronger at the rim. It might be worth the effort before you invest in yet a third set of expensive wheels to verify your conclusions with respect to the previous two sets of wheels.

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