S650 is there no actual oil temp sensor?

[24 vert]

https://www.mustang7g.com/forums/th...rake-ducts-inner-fender-liner-install.165071/
In the first post in the above thread, the statement there was that the oil temp on all S650 models is "inferred" based on other parameters and displayed in the center display and not an actual reading.
Can anybody deny/confirm this?
Is there an actual oil temp sensor part for the s650?
If there is not an actual oil temp sensor, is there any way to actually install one and integrate into the cluster as the value of an "inferred" temperature is clearly questionable. It's subject to multiple variables outside the ability of the programmers to "infer" such as a blocked oil cooler duct, change in oil viscosity or additive package causing change in temperature, addition of an auxiliary oil cooler etc. Even impending mechanical failure such as main or con rod bearing could show as increased oil temps due to higher levels of friction before final symptomatic failure.
If this really is an inferred value, the dash doesn't really offer much option in terms of integrating an oil temp sensor cleanly.
Sorry for the rant. Would love everybody's thoughts on this. Don't know if this is misinformation but if it is, would be helpful to clear it up.

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[Paul's stable]

https://www.mustang7g.com/forums/th...rake-ducts-inner-fender-liner-install.165071/
In the first post in the above thread, the statement there was that the oil temp on all S650 models is "inferred" based on other parameters and displayed in the center display and not an actual reading.
Can anybody deny/confirm this?
Is there an actual oil temp sensor part for the s650?
If there is not an actual oil temp sensor, is there any way to actually install one and integrate into the cluster as the value of an "inferred" temperature is clearly questionable. It's subject to multiple variables outside the ability of the programmers to "infer" such as a blocked oil cooler duct, change in oil viscosity or additive package causing change in temperature, addition of an auxiliary oil cooler etc. Even impending mechanical failure such as main or con rod bearing could show as increased oil temps due to higher levels of friction before final symptomatic failure.
If this really is an inferred value, the dash doesn't really offer much option in terms of integrating an oil temp sensor cleanly.
Sorry for the rant. Would love everybody's thoughts on this. Don't know if this is misinformation but if it is, would be helpful to clear it up.

My Dark Horse has an oil temp and differential temp. Not 100% sure as I am not sitting in it right now. I'm old so I might have misunderstood what your trying to say.

 

[24 vert]

My Dark Horse has an oil temp and differential temp. Not 100% sure as I am not sitting in it right now. I'm old so I might have misunderstood what your trying to say.

Mine (GT PREMIUM PP MT82D4) shows values for oil temperature and axle oil temperature in the display as well. What the post that I was referencing was saying was that there's no actual sensor and the computer is just figuring out what the oil temp should probably be based on other data it has and calculates what the oil temp should be based on a formula. Hopefully that makes sense.
If there's a parts diagram that shows an oil temp sensor, this conversation is moot. I think we should probably ask the same questions for the axle oil temp as well.

Anybody that's in the know or has access to the parts catalog hopefully you can help clarify? Thanks

 

[Paul's stable]

Mine (GT PREMIUM PP MT82D4) shows values for oil temperature and axle oil temperature in the display as well. What the post that I was referencing was saying was that there's no actual sensor and the computer is just figuring out what the oil temp should probably be based on other data it has and calculates what the oil temp should be based on a formula. Hopefully that makes sense.
If there's a parts diagram that shows an oil temp sensor, this conversation is moot. I think we should probably ask the same questions for the axle oil temp as well.

Anybody that's in the know or has access to the parts catalog hopefully you can help clarify? Thanks

When I have been under the car and the rear end had what looked like sensors in it with the wiring. But I think I understand what your saying.

 

[24 vert]

When I have been under the car and the rear end had what looked like sensors in it with the wiring. But I think I understand what your saying.

The pictures I've seen show a sensor adjacent to the filter. But all the things I'm also seeing state that is an oil pressure sensor not temperature. I haven't looked at the differential closely enough to determine if there are wires coming out of it and whether or not that's a temperature sender.

I would love input from anybody else that has a better idea.

 

[24 vert]

I tried looking through the Ford parts connect catalog with the VIN for my GT performance pack car... No oil temperature sensor comes up as a replacement part at all. Bunch of other kinds of sensors pop up such as coolant temp, ambient temp for the AC, transmission fluid temp etc. But no oil temperature sensor... Anybody that work at a dealership that can help with this?
Cheers,
24 Vert

 

[Skye]

I can't speak to the oil temp sensor, but can to the intake air and cylinder heat temp units in the S550: they're thermistors.

A thermistor is a temperature-sensitive resistor. With the circuit installed, a small voltage is continuously run through it. As temperature increases, resistance decreases, leading to an increase in the temperature reading.

I'd have to study if the CHT and oil temp are taken from the same thermistor in the Coyote. The CHT sensor is attached to the passenger side cylinder head, rear of engine, on the Gen 3. Someone might have access to a harness diagram for the Gen 4. I suspect the sensor is in the same location, but cannot confirm.

FWIW, I've never read a concern the readings are unreliable or inaccurate.

Edit,

https://ford.oempartsonline.com/oem-parts/ford-cylinder-head-temp-sensor-jl3z6g004a?origin=pla&gQT=2

A CHT sensor.

As to a dedicated oil temp sensor, there isn't one. I've read a few threads of people installing sensors and a dedicated gauge. One, placed a "T" at the oil pressure sensor engine port, then ran a line from that. Another, tapped a line associated with their oil cooler.

 

[24 vert]

I can't speak to the oil temp sensor, but can to the intake air and cylinder heat temp units in the S550: they're thermistors.

A thermistor is a temperature-sensitive resistor. With the circuit installed, a small voltage is continuously run through it. As temperature increases, resistance decreases, leading to an increase in the temperature reading.

I'd have to study if the CHT and oil temp are taken from the same thermistor in the Coyote. The CHT sensor is attached to the passenger side cylinder head, rear of engine, on the Gen 3. Someone might have access to a harness diagram for the Gen 4. I suspect the sensor is in the same location, but cannot confirm.

FWIW, I've never read a concern the readings are unreliable or inaccurate.

Edit,

https://ford.oempartsonline.com/oem-parts/ford-cylinder-head-temp-sensor-jl3z6g004a?origin=pla&gQT=2

^ What a CHT sensor looks like.

As to a dedicated oil temp sensor, there isn't one. I've read a few threads of people installing sensors and a dedicated gauge. One, placed a "T" at the oil pressure sensor engine port, then ran a line from that. Another, tapped a line associated with their oil cooler.

Yep. Well aware of thermistors/thermocouples and their usage for temperature measurements. The CHT seems like it is essentially a coolant temp sensor possibly mounted within a coolant passage in the head. I don't think it's pulling oil temps from the same sensor because I've seen a 50 Fahrenheit differential between my reported oil temp and CHT on the dash. One sensor cannot provide two values that are that discrepant.
With regards to reliability of the oil temp readings, can't really assess that unless you have objective data to compare. Some of the threads have already mentioned actual measurements being 20 to 30 Fahrenheit lower than the reported dashboard temps.
I have installed oil temp sensors in the other cars that I've owned before. I just feel that the digital dash and a square vents on the s650 platform is not conducive to adding any additional gauges to the interior. This is where a lack of tuning ability also comes into play because we can't modify the graphics on the screen. We also can't provide an additional input for the one that's lacking.
Oil temp has many variables to consider including thermal demands, load,viscosity of the oil, and less obviously even the additive package in the oil can have an effect on the temps. Also, the algorithms used to generate inferred temperatures are unable to infer an active mechanical malfunction, what's the value of the display? It's equivalent to the coolant gauge having been dumbed down to an idiot light that only tells you if you're overheating but also sometimes doesn't tell you if it's overheating as well. As you can see, it's starting to sound like a crap shoot...
Let's put it this way. I've seen oil temps on the dash saying high 270s F in my car after a 45 minute joyride on the street in 55°F ambient temps and low humidity. If this is algorithm based and you look at other threads where people are posting their oil temps, mine show higher on the street than theirs on the track, and mine is a performance pack car with an oil cooler. Should I trust the algorithm? Should I believe that I run my car harder on the street than other mustang 7G members run their car on the track? Is the algorithm giving owners an overestimation of the oil temp to encourage owners to drive more conservatively and reduce potential warranty claims for Ford? Hmmm...Food for thought.
Cheers,
24 Vert

 

[Adautomotive]

https://www.mustang7g.com/forums/th...rake-ducts-inner-fender-liner-install.165071/
In the first post in the above thread, the statement there was that the oil temp on all S650 models is "inferred" based on other parameters and displayed in the center display and not an actual reading.
Can anybody deny/confirm this?
Is there an actual oil temp sensor part for the s650?
If there is not an actual oil temp sensor, is there any way to actually install one and integrate into the cluster as the value of an "inferred" temperature is clearly questionable. It's subject to multiple variables outside the ability of the programmers to "infer" such as a blocked oil cooler duct, change in oil viscosity or additive package causing change in temperature, addition of an auxiliary oil cooler etc. Even impending mechanical failure such as main or con rod bearing could show as increased oil temps due to higher levels of friction before final symptomatic failure.
If this really is an inferred value, the dash doesn't really offer much option in terms of integrating an oil temp sensor cleanly.
Sorry for the rant. Would love everybody's thoughts on this. Don't know if this is misinformation but if it is, would be helpful to clear it up.

It's an oil algorthm based on input from the engine temperature sensor. I did the check with my own car i meassered the temperature with a heat camera and checked what i had on the dash and i can garantee it's accurate

 

[steveo1960]

It's an oil algorthm based on input from the engine temperature sensor. I did the check with my own car i meassered the temperature with a heat camera and checked what i had on the dash and i can garantee it's accurate

Yes.
I was just about to post after scanning the Shop Manual. It seems in the VCT section they make mention of the algorithm but not much info. Also in the component and wiring connector sections there is also no mention of a sensor. Nice post! thanks!

 

[Cool66]

Great info. I can confirm after installing a thermalcoupler with the oil cooler, the temps are 25-30 degrees cooler than what is displayed on the dash. I installed the OEM PP oil cooler, radiator, and front brake ducts back in December and have monitored the temps closely since the install. Really want to get the issued resolved as I enjoy track days in Daytona and Sebring. The question now is how do you change the algorithm to reflect the addition of the OEM oil cooler on non-PP cars? Is there something in FORScan data or is it a PCM flash update? If it's a flash update, my guess is Ford will not be very cooperative.

 

[Adautomotive]

Great info. I can confirm after installing a thermalcoupler with the oil cooler, the temps are 25-30 degrees cooler than what is displayed on the dash. I installed the OEM PP oil cooler, radiator, and front brake ducts back in December and have monitored the temps closely since the install. Really want to get the issued resolved as I enjoy track days in Daytona and Sebring. The question now is how do you change the algorithm to reflect the addition of the OEM oil cooler on non-PP cars? Is there something in FORScan data or is it a PCM flash update? If it's a flash update, my guess is Ford will not be very cooperative.

I have my car since june2024 and i have a diagnostic shop here in my town. And we work 99% with Oem software. Just for the reason there is so much more involved then adjust some parameter with forscan. The first thing you need to do is check on ptts with your vin how manny updates you are behind. Car is build in januari 2024 and untill now i had 7 updates including pcm/tcm abs etc. Everybody believe even pcm updates Come over the air and that's where they are wrong. In my case there where 3 OTA updates. None of them did pcm. I needed Fdrs for this one. Your first step is ptts!

 

[24 vert]

It's an oil algorthm based on input from the engine temperature sensor. I did the check with my own car i meassered the temperature with a heat camera and checked what i had on the dash and i can garantee it's accurate

I would love to duplicate your results. I don't think I have a heat camera laying around but finding an infrared pyrometer won't be too difficult. Where were you measuring with the heat camera to come up with the oil temp? Were you pulling out the dipstick and checking the temperature on the end or some other methodology as I don't see any obvious easy way to measure oil temps without a sensor in the stream of oil flow ideally post oil cooler?
Cheers,
24 Vert

 

[Adautomotive]

I would love to duplicate your results. I don't think I have a heat camera laying around but finding an infrared pyrometer won't be too difficult. Where were you measuring with the heat camera to come up with the oil temp? Were you pulling out the dipstick and checking the temperature on the end or some other methodology as I don't see any obvious easy way to measure oil temps without a sensor in the stream of oil flow ideally post oil cooler?
Cheers,
24 Vert

Before i did my oil change i looked with the thermal camera at the oil sump. With a thermal camera you get a good view of heatspots and whe use it to Quick check cats in and out temperature to see if the cat is operating. My opinion is that you search it to far. Unless you have on the dash 80 degrees oil temp and the car is just running one minute or so. If the engine oil gets to Hot believe me dtc Will be set because it's using engine temp sensor also. It's an algoritm that also includes it calculates depending on engine load etc. In my opinion much safer then a seperated sensor. The reason is if the sensor brakes it's most of the time in - 250 degr. State you don't want to track your car then because for the pcm a faulty temperature reading is no fault. And Will set no dtc. We see this a lot with older european cars with the coolant temp sensor causing overfuel situations. Plus oil coolers like on the gearbox etc have a valve that only let oil bypass at a certain temperature. Otherwise the engine doesn't get fast enough at operating temperature. Like i told before check for pcm update this is your main priority! Otherwise send me your vin and i check today on pts

 

[Zig]

Is rpm inferred as well?

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