Dark Horse Mustang vs. C8 vs. M2 (Savage Geese Comparison Review)

[Zig]

First of all, it's not that I don't believe that the claimed 486. That's also something I never said. I said Americans like to advertise high numbers and Europeans like to use numbers a driver should expect.

Second of all, HP is a general term, it can be literally everything, BHP, WHP, DIN or PS.

The most important thing is that Mustangs are measured in BHP, also in the United States, but they don't say BHP and only use the term HP.

BHP is measured at the crank. So even when American Mustangs don't use the BHP term but the general HP term, they mean it is measured by the crank wich makes it 486BHP.

Lastly, I'm sorry, but I really have a problem with this way of thinking by using exceptions to say that there are also European cars that make false HP claims.

What you did right here is an exception fallacy, using an outlier to define the norm doesn’t prove the point.

We are talking in general, that means we are talking about what European car brands in general do vs what American car brands in general do.

With your way of thinking, there are always a way to find exeptions on both sides.

Do you purchase a ‘coke’ or a carbonated refreshing drink?

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[Polo08816]

My only gripe with the DH is price. It should be undercutting BMW on price.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

First of all, it's not that I don't believe that the claimed 486. That's also something I never said. I said Americans like to advertise high numbers and Europeans like to use numbers a driver should expect.

Second of all, HP is a general term, it can be literally everything, BHP, WHP, DIN or PS.

The most important thing is that Mustangs are measured in BHP, also in the United States, but they don't say BHP and only use the term HP.

BHP is measured at the crank. So even when American Mustangs don't use the BHP term but the general HP term, they mean it is measured by the crank wich makes it 486BHP.

Lastly, I'm sorry, but I really have a problem with this way of thinking by using exceptions to say that there are also European cars that make false HP claims.

What you did right here is an exception fallacy, using an outlier to define the norm doesn’t prove the point.

We are talking in general, that means we are talking about what European car brands in general do vs what American car brands in general do.

With your way of thinking, there are always a way to find exeptions on both sides.

Isn't the BMW in the video just one example that you are trying to use to prove your point?

 

[Junkyard Dog]

A manufacturer making false horsepower claims in the United States would be subject to truth in advertising laws. Moreover, there are standards here with respect to how manufacturers measure the horsepower, and third party observations as well.

I imagine the European Union has similar things, but my point is that these numbers are not just made up over here on this side of the Atlantic, however you may feel as a superior European about inferior, loud-mouthed Americans and their constant bragging and hyperbole.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

It appears that there are both German and European standards on that side of the Atlantic.

https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-truth-about-carmaker-engine-power-claims

 

[ChitownStang]

It appears that there are both German and European standards on that side of the Atlantic.

https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-truth-about-carmaker-engine-power-claims

Great article but still don't understand how BMW cars consistently lay down crank #'s to the wheels with a 15% loss.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Great article but still don't understand how BMW cars consistently lay down crank #'s to the wheels with a 15% loss.

I don't know if it is consistent or not. Car and Driver put a 2019 BMW M5 Competition on the dyno and came up with 617 at the wheels, which is the rated output of the engine, so, obviously, the engine was making quite a bit more.

But consistently? I don't know. The internet and urban legend seem to be the only confirmation for this widely held belief.

Car and Driver did something similar with the GT350, ostensibly rated at 526, but shows on a dyno something approaching 600 (fuzzy memory here) but nobody is claiming Ford consistently under-rates its horsepower figures. Indeed, the diametric opposite is being claimed right here in this thread.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Here it is: 581 horsepower, Motor Trend, not Car and Driver.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2019-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350-dyno-results
(Should have used Google before writing my post)

494 to the wheels

 

[robvas]

They've been underrated for a while

The BMW Supra made 388 on a dyno and it's 382 rated from the factory...

 

[Cz_Ziemniak]

But we can't use the excuse like what Paul's Table said that Mustang is wheel horsepower.

Both BMW and Ford use crank horsepower.

Pretty sure BMW just prints a dyno chart of their engines, tapes it to a wall, then has an engineer throw a dart at it. Wherever it lands on the curve is what they decide to claim is the cars peak power, lmao.

 

[GrabThatBlue]

Pretty sure BMW just prints a dyno chart of their engines, tapes it to a wall, then has an engineer throw a dart at it. Wherever it lands on the curve is what they decide to claim is the cars peak power, lmao.

'Strangely' enough the guy who throws the dart is always giving it a lower hp.

 

[Cz_Ziemniak]

'Strangely' enough the guy who throws the dart is always giving it a lower hp.

Yeah, its 100% intentional. They might just tune their in house dyno's 5-10% more conservatively

 

[GrabThatBlue]

Yeah, its 100% intentional. They might just tune their in house dyno's 5-10% more conservatively

It's better to have it this way.
That's why they are most of the time faster than theor competitors. They under value their cars and when we compare them to similar cars, they win the races. Americans on the other hand are doing exact the other way around. They ober estimate their cars and they loose.

It almost sound like I hate American cars which I don't, but I don't like the American way of marketing. Feels like a scam, but yeah, they get away with it.

I don't know if I would drive a Mustang if I was living in the states. Mustangs over there are like VW Golfs over here.

I chose the Mustang because it stands out and they are super rare. Don't want to be that borong European in a Volkswagen, which I still have as my primary car lol.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

It almost sound like I hate American cars which I don't, but I don't like the American way of marketing. Feels like a scam, but yeah, they get away with it.

I don't know if I would drive a Mustang if I was living in the states. Mustangs over there are like VW Golfs over here.

I chose the Mustang because it stands out and they are super rare. Don't want to be that borong European in a Volkswagen, which I still have as my primary car lol.

I don't think any of us thought you hated American cars, since you have one and are shipping it around the world.

I drove a 1980 Camaro with T-Tops and a 4 speed when I was in Germany in the 80s. I has swapped a larger small block into it with a better intake and exhaust and a large cam. It was fast for back then. I also had nitrous oxide (bottle in the trunk, spray plate under the carburetor).

When that loud car was idling or driving through the cobblestone streets of some village in Germany or Luxembourg, kids would stop and grab their mom's dress and start yanking while pointing and gesticulating wildly with the other hand. LOL. It attracted as much attention as a Panzer rolling through town. It was a fun car to drive there, but I hated the 3.73 rear gear with no overdrive on the autobahn (oh, the lack of good technology back then for performance cars) because it would rev past the redline in top gear pretty easily. Even driving at lower speeds the engine was screaming too high.

I used to rent a Mercedes when I wanted to take a longer trip just so I could drive with my foot on the floor the entire way without having to worry about the engine scattering pieces of its connecting rods all over the road.

 

[Dave2013M3]

First off the M2 was on the OEM PS4S not the PSC2s that you can get on the car. While the DH was on the ultra sticky Pirellis and yet the M2 was still faster around the track than the DH. The switch to the stickier tires aid in feel tremendously. Pay attention to the 29:15 mark of the video, they mention the same thing. They felt if it had stickier tires it would feel better and would have been the fastest car around the track. Not to mention it was 95deg F that day. What also is phenominal with the M2 is how well it handles heat as far as able to keep the timing up and the transmission and rearend don't over heat. Not to mention you can get the M2 cheaper than you can a DH with HP.

The ZF 8spd M2 can now be loaded with the CS tune from BMW bringing it to 523hp, this tune is an OEM file used for the M2CS and can be bought for $200 and you can get the CS tuning of the steering and the EDC as well. This can be had for $400 total for the DME and transmission, steering and diffy tune. This can be added to even pre LCI G87 cars. These cars are putting down 525rwhp+ to the wheels with this.

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