Tuning base GT?!?

[AZ_Ryan]

If you cannot track the car without overheating it, then the radiator is not designed to cool 486 horsepower.

That is just a true statement.

Now let's tackle your next assertion, that


Maybe the qualifier adverb "instantly" was thrown in there because you realized the silliness of what you were posting when you posted it.

You are in Arizona. HPDE 30 minute sessions in July (about five of them each day, for ten over two days) are normal tourist sort of "tracking" that Mustang owners tend to do.

I'll let you tell everybody for yourself whether "instantly" was meant to exclude normal "track" use of a Mustang GT or you are actually claiming that the standard GT radiator is "just fine" for normal track use.

But, yeah, nobody is claiming the car will "instantly" overheat.

I just do not understand why some folks feel the need to bicker on the internet even when they know the other person is correct.

I wrote that his radiator would be "fine" if he wanted an E85 tune. My post actually says that. I suggested, however, that he upgrade the radiator "if he starts tracking it" and "if he finds his temperatures are too high." Which he will. You know that. This is not some wild speculative journey with no information from the real world. The stock radiator is not made for tracking. He will also need an oil cooler if he keeps tracking it, because the faster he gets, the more heat he will put into the oil. The performance of a stock GT with a really good driver is enough overheat the oil if there is no oil cooler to remove heat. You probably know this, too.

Yikes. I really appreciate your contributions to this forum, but that response was dripping with unnecessary condescension and totally unnecessary.

I was simply referring to your statement that "the base GT radiator was designed to commute to work and the grocery store" which is a very silly oversimplification IMO. By saying that you are indeed implying the base GT has a cooling problem for anything other than those two things. Perhaps thats not what you meant, but thats how it read.

My point was that simply tuning the car wont create a cooling problem. I also addressed tracking in my previous post and dont need to repeat what I said. We fundamentally agree on that aspect. The problem is at no point did the OP ever mention tracking the car. So if you want to turn this into a track argument thats on you. I have no skin in that game. I said my peice to address the OPs question.

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[Junkyard Dog]

Yikes. I really appreciate your contributions to this forum, but that response was dripping with unnecessary condescension and totally unnecessary.

Dammit.





Sorry.








Seriously. I will try to do better next time I take issue with a post.

 

[AZ_Ryan]

Dammit.





Sorry.








Seriously. I will try to do better next time I take issue with a post.

All good brother. Sometimes written responses come off with unintentional tone and intent. Im guilty of that too.

 

[Cz_Ziemniak]

If you cannot track the car without overheating it, then the radiator is not designed to cool 486 horsepower.

That is just a true statement.

Now let's tackle your next assertion, that


Maybe the qualifier adverb "instantly" was thrown in there because you realized the silliness of what you were posting when you posted it.

You are in Arizona. HPDE 30 minute sessions in July (about five of them each day, for ten over two days) are normal tourist sort of "tracking" that Mustang owners tend to do.

I'll let you tell everybody for yourself whether "instantly" was meant to exclude normal "track" use of a Mustang GT or you are actually claiming that the standard GT radiator is "just fine" for normal track use.

But, yeah, nobody is claiming the car will "instantly" overheat.

I just do not understand why some folks feel the need to bicker on the internet even when they know the other person is correct.

I wrote that his radiator would be "fine" if he wanted an E85 tune. My post actually says that. I suggested, however, that he upgrade the radiator "if he starts tracking it" and "if he finds his temperatures are too high." Which he will. You know that. This is not some wild speculative journey with no information from the real world. The stock radiator is not made for tracking. He will also need an oil cooler if he keeps tracking it, because the faster he gets, the more heat he will put into the oil. The performance of a stock GT with a really good driver is enough overheat the oil if there is no oil cooler to remove heat. You probably know this, too.

I recall that the S550 GT350 had overheating issues on track too. Billed as a track car, yet it was overheating after just a few laps.

Either way, there is only benefit to be had by upgrading the cooling system, especially if OP is tuning the car.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

I see that Brenspeed has a two inch thick radiator for the S550 (GT and GT350).

https://www.brenspeed.com/77715.html

I can't find anybody selling anything like this for the S650. The Mishimoto appears to be about the largest capacity radiator available, and I cannot even find the OEM spec to see whether it adds any capacity over what Ford built into my Dark Horse.

 

[ZXMustang]

Are we talking about actual overheating/popping the coolant overflow and having a melt down or are we talking about the car going into a predetermined limp mode to try and save itself from actually melting down?

I think the latter. I dont recall seeing or hearing of any s550 or s650 mustang "over heating" in the classic sense of the phrase compared to just going into a PCM triggered limp mode to protect itself.

Those values can be adjusted as well as ECT fan thresholds and speeds. These cars arent set to go 100% fans until the coolant temps ECTs reach 212f. Thats insane, but also meant to keep the car quiet and probably extend the longevity of the fan motor.

Its easy in a tune to move that scale down in both temp and fan speeds v temp. That and those damn grille shutters which need to be forced open at all times helps and makes all the difference for the non PP cars.

The F150 has two sets of these grille shutters. When I run the AC in my truck, they stay open and temps sit in the 180s. When I turn off the AC and run windows down, temps rise to 212+. The minute I turn back on the AC, temps quickly fall back down into the 180s. Grille shutters are set to open 100% when the AC is running. I flashed my truck just to disable the auto stop start and set the shutters to 100% open all the time and now it runs cool as a cucumber in the FL heat with or without AC on. Same with all the 5.0s I tune. Unless you are a cold weather person and DD the car in winter. Then you need them to close to help get the car up to temps when its bitter cold.

 

[ZXMustang]

And to answer the OPs question any increase in heat from tuning a car for more spark advance and leaner fueling would easily be offset by those cooling changes I said above. And I know for a fact that just about every tuner changes all that and a bunch more parameters to give the car the best situation of staying cooler than OEM.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Are we talking about actual overheating/popping the coolant overflow and having a melt down or are we talking about the car going into a predetermined limp mode to try and save itself from actually melting down?

I think the latter. I dont recall seeing or hearing of any s550 or s650 mustang "over heating" in the classic sense of the phrase compared to just going into a PCM triggered limp mode to protect itself.

The latter, obviously.

Those values can be adjusted as well as ECT fan thresholds and speeds.

Raise the temperature before the limp mode kicks in?

I suppose as long as it is still safe . . . I always thought the engineers started retarding spark and making other changes to save the engine as it gets hotter by limiting the amount of new heat the driver can introduce by just continuing to push the car.

These cars aren't set to go 100% fans until the coolant temps ECTs reach 212f. Thats insane, but also meant to keep the car quiet and probably extend the longevity of the fan motor.

Its easy in a tune to move that scale down in both temp and fan speeds v temp. That and those damn grille shutters which need to be forced open at all times helps and makes all the difference for the non PP cars.

The F150 has two sets of these grille shutters. When I run the AC in my truck, they stay open and temps sit in the 180s. When I turn off the AC and run windows down, temps rise to 212+. The minute I turn back on the AC, temps quickly fall back down into the 180s. Grille shutters are set to open 100% when the AC is running. I flashed my truck just to disable the auto stop start and set the shutters to 100% open all the time and now it runs cool as a cucumber in the FL heat with or without AC on. Same with all the 5.0s I tune. Unless you are a cold weather person and DD the car in winter. Then you need them to close to help get the car up to temps when its bitter cold.

I am sure all of that works great on the street.

But for track, none of that is even relevant. Turning the fan on earlier in a car that is seeing 270 and rising oil temp and coolant way above 212 is not going to do anything - on track the temperatures shoot past these lower values you are talking about in seconds and right at the beginning of the session.

The fan and shroud could be completely removed and cooling would be improved as you are driving 140 mph between turns 7 and 10a on Road Atlanta.

The fan and shroud are just an obstruction to air flow on track. In fact, the Dark Horse R GT4 cars drill big holes with a hole saw in the shroud to let more air through at speed (you can see where the holes are allowed in the latest supplement to modifications allowed - they cannot simply remove the shroud). They also run large, custom aluminum radiators with extra capacity.

A few aftermarket companies address this shroud issue with flaps that open at speed and close at idle. I don't know how well these work, but I doubt they help significantly.

I don't know anything about grille shutters on the GT or F150. I have a Dark Horse. But they sound retarded unless you live in Alaska.

 

[ZXMustang]

The latter, obviously.



Raise the temperature before the limp mode kicks in?

I suppose as long as it is still safe . . . I always thought the engineers started retarding spark and making other changes to save the engine as it gets hotter by limiting the amount of new heat the driver can introduce by just continuing to push the car.



I am sure all of that works great on the street.

But for track, none of that is even relevant. Turning the fan on earlier in a car that is seeing 270 and rising oil temp and coolant way above 212 is not going to do anything - on track the temperatures shoot past these lower values you are talking about in seconds and right at the beginning of the session.

The fan and shroud could be completely removed and cooling would be improved as you are driving 140 mph between turns 7 and 10a on Road Atlanta.

The fan and shroud are just an obstruction to air flow on track. In fact, the Dark Horse R GT4 cars drill big holes with a hole saw in the shroud to let more air through at speed (you can see where the holes are allowed in the latest supplement to modifications allowed - they cannot simply remove the shroud). They also run large, custom aluminum radiators with extra capacity.

A few aftermarket companies address this shroud issue with flaps that open at speed and close at idle. I don't know how well these work, but I doubt they help significantly.

I don't know anything about grille shutters on the GT or F150. I have a Dark Horse. But they sound retarded unless you live in Alaska.

Grille shutters are retarted lol. Let me know when you are ready to tune that DH and I can do a cooling only tune for you. Just basically turning up everything cooling related to 11 to get that car to keep itself in check. And you seeing the temps shoot up well past 212 is because you have no headroom. If the car can get a handle on cooling well before then, it shouldn't react like you are saying. I would be very disappointed to see if the DH was unable to make a few track laps without being on the edge of melting down.

Out of the hundreds of these I've tuned, several have been on track including base GTs, PPs and DHs and a few drift cars sitting on the limiter for many minutes at a time and they dont seem to have those issues - at least not anymore. I just did one that races locally here at sebring and we did a cooling only tune. Still stock spark and fueling, with trans enhancements and he can run all day all 3 or 4 sessions with no issues. I did a whipple car as well with melted cats. He went headers, and we did those enhancements to the already pretty good whipple tune and it runs its sessions intermediate with no problems.

Have you thought about taking yours in to be looked at? I really dont see those results you are saying you see in many other cars. Not wanting to start a thing here with you and Im not saying you're lying by any stretch. Just hard to say with what I've seen and how hard these cars can be pushed once they are set up correctly. You really should consider a tune if you are doing this seriously. Just the ECT changes alone will help keep the car out of the danger zone Im sure.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Oh, my car runs in the 190s all summer driving on the street. It never gets out of the the 180s for shorter trips.

The fan is on because I am almost always running A/C even when it is not summer.

The Dark Horse has to be really pushed to see a CHT over 200. I have gotten the CHT over 220 on the public motorways exactly once, but that requires seriously risking arrest, so . . . and it cooled right down when I backed off and cruised.

I am also not a good enough driver yet to overheat the stock Dark Horse on track. Maybe one day.

 

[Mr.CarbonG]

If your car is a non performance pack car you should be far more concerned with the Transmission Temps before coolant temps are discussed. I agree that the non performance pack cars were not intended to be tracked its very clear in the lack of coolers. The issue I have is the lack of transmission cooler in the non Performance Pack cars that has me moderately worried in spirited driving.
I think the Dark Horse Radiator/Fan kit provided by Ford Performance is a worth while upgrade and a good start along with your tuner making correct adjustments on the Fan/Active Shudder.

 

[vaporbluestang]

All - just quick update. I reached out to Lund racing and few others. Below was the response I received from Lund customer support.
I really don’t understand necessity if we don’t gain anything on 91 tune and e85 we may? What’s use of tuning?

 

[robvas]

All - just quick update. I reached out to Lund racing and few others. Below was the response I received from Lund customer support.
I really don’t understand necessity if we don’t gain anything on 91 tune and e85 we may? What’s use of tuning?

The stock tune is going to pull timing on 91 so you it's not like you can add timing and gain power with an aftermarket tune.

93 or ethanol (whether it's e30, e50, e85...) will allow more timing therefore more power.

 

[vaporbluestang]

The stock tune is going to pull timing on 91 so you it's not like you can add timing and gain power with an aftermarket tune.

93 or ethanol (whether it's e30, e50, e85...) will allow more timing therefore more power.

Ok gotcha on 91. Since I live in Denver we don’t have 93 here. But question is the support agent said for e85 “I just need tune” no need for flex fuel kit or anything. How does ecu know what fuel I got and how does it adjust itself?

 

[robvas]

Ok gotcha on 91. Since I live in Denver we don’t have 93 here. But question is the support agent said for e85 “I just need tune” no need for flex fuel kit or anything. How does ecu know what fuel I got and how does it adjust itself?

There's a few answers to that question. The ECU can guess based on AFR etc and add fuel accordingly (the 'old' way, called a flex tune), or the flex fuel logic can be enabled in the ECU. Or, you can run an e85 specific tune that basically just adds way more timing and fuel. In that case the ECU doesn't really know and it just set up for e85

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