New Build! Ultimate Daily / Track Weapon Combo

[Kennysum1]

What do you intend to do to the engine to use it on the track?

The Coyote easy button of bolting on 875 horsepower and ripping down the drag strip before stopping off for groceries on the way home will not work for a 30 minute track session.

I would be lying if I told you exactly right this second. But I will tell you one thing, 30 mins isnt going to cut it and cooling costs what it costs lol

Whatever it takes.

Also I was putting down slightly under 1200 to the ground and driving it to work lol but its easier to keep your foot out of something than it is to cool and keep everything properly lubricated, aligned, and just not busted while beating on a car for hours on end at a road course. God bless those mechanics man. Also rip to the tire gods.

Here's a Pic of the old Mustang tuned up. Sleeper build. Twin turbos on E85 with all of the supporting mods.

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[Junkyard Dog]

LOL, I would not have guessed anything by a quick glance at the top of the engine bay.

I stated 30 mins only because of your typical HPDE track day sessions, which are in that range of 25-30 minutes each.

I will be very interested to follow along and see what you have in store for hours on track, especially with cooling modifications.

 

[BimmerDriver]

OP, since you asked, I'll give you my two cents, which is about twice as much as its worth.

When I was a wee tot, I was at my first autocross with my Datsun 280ZX and there was a guy there with a very competitive and beautiful 240Z all prepped and very fast. I asked him, what should I do to my car to make it faster? He answered, "sell it and buy a Turbo". It's a better platform to build on. Of course I didn't do that, but I did eventually buy a Corvette which was routinely trounced by the little cars.

I had a S550 GT which I tracked, and I went to a fair bother to make it hold up. It was a mistake, I really should have started with the PP car. There's just so much stuff already there that Ford did for us, it was a poor decision on my part. So when I decided to get back into a Mustang, this time I did it right and bought a Dark Horse.

You have racing experience, but that's different than HPDE. As noted by others, start with brakes and camber plates, and then I suggest changing seats and adding harnesses. Remember to do both seats equally, as instructors expect (and deserve) equal protection.

After that, depending on how hard you drive and how the car holds up, you can address cooling and other issues for reliability rather than just outright speed.

Have fun and best of luck!

 

[Kennysum1]

OP, since you asked, I'll give you my two cents, which is about twice as much as its worth.

When I was a wee tot, I was at my first autocross with my Datsun 280ZX and there was a guy there with a very competitive and beautiful 240Z all prepped and very fast. I asked him, what should I do to my car to make it faster? He answered, "sell it and buy a Turbo". It's a better platform to build on. Of course I didn't do that, but I did eventually buy a Corvette which was routinely trounced by the little cars.

I had a S550 GT which I tracked, and I went to a fair bother to make it hold up. It was a mistake, I really should have started with the PP car. There's just so much stuff already there that Ford did for us, it was a poor decision on my part. So when I decided to get back into a Mustang, this time I did it right and bought a Dark Horse.

You have racing experience, but that's different than HPDE. As noted by others, start with brakes and camber plates, and then I suggest changing seats and adding harnesses. Remember to do both seats equally, as instructors expect (and deserve) equal protection.

After that, depending on how hard you drive and how the car holds up, you can address cooling and other issues for reliability rather than just outright speed.

Have fun and best of luck!

Hey Bimmer! I will take and appreciate any advice offered freely!

Rest assured that the base GT and then modding it is the way to go for someone like me. I only spent $40,500 for this GT brand new lol.

I did a ton of research on the GT PP and the Dark Horse before deciding to go down this road. I spoke to a lot of other people I race with and that are super experienced in track days and the base GT provides the platform. From there I would have had to mod the Dark Horse with a lot of similar mods to track it also. I would for sure have had to do cooling mods on it also at the least.

As I am sure you know your ability to push the car is going to depend on how much cooling and brakes you need as a driver. The Dark Horse does have a ton of great cooling mods for everyday track usage. But I am confident that those stock coolers and such will not hold up under sustained hot laps. You can find people with far less driving experience tracking them and still over heating the car. Easy to find on the Mustang Track forums. Even the Mach1 overheats. Funny though it overheats less than the Dark Horse due to the boiler design/ECU location. (imo).

That is not bashing the car, its a production car and does great for normal track days and 95% of people could have a blast for their entire life in the Dark Horse and never come close to even using 75% of the car. I just wanted to skip the day where I would know the car enough and get the right setup just for it to overheat and throw on protection mode. Nothing will kill your day like your car over heating or having issues handling what is being thrown at it.

Why buy the Dark Horse to essentially replace and/or add to it? Its getting new camber plates, rotors, pads, lines, cooling mods, and suspension mods to make it more rigid. It already costs damn near 80k or some crazy number. Just do the math here.... do you think I cannot make a base GT faster than a Dark Horse with an extra 40k? No reason to even guess at it. Companies have already done it and the parts are common and cheap to install compared to shelling out another 30 to 40k for upgraded trims that has a ton of stuff I will never use or care for.

Think about it. If you do not care for all of the amenities also in the Dark Horse and other higher trims and your willing to drop your car off with a reputable shop (tons on the forums) they will hand you back a car that will beat the Dark Horse around the track and be more fun to drive on the track.

Also the base GT interior is not nearly as bad as other cars. Ford did a great job on that. Some models swing so wildly between trims the interior can be really really bad....

 

[BimmerDriver]

Hey Bimmer! I will take and appreciate any advice offered freely!

... they will hand you back a car that will beat the Dark Horse around the track and be more fun to drive on the track.

Also the base GT interior is not nearly as bad as other cars. Ford did a great job on that. Some models swing so wildly between trims the interior can be really really bad....

No argument with anything you wrote. Just two additional thoughts for perspective:

- HPDE is not racing, and therefore I (me, personally) don't need to be the fastest out there. It's a mindset, largely set on my very first track event where I was in my kinda-new Corvette and got lapped, lapped I tell you, by some kid in his Camaro. That's the definition of humbling. We were both in the novice group, and he did get black-flagged. And I fried my brakes. There I am, coming down the front straight at 135 MPH, pumping the brakes like mad and my instructor starts laughing.

I think too, my autocross experience getting my butt handed to me by Miatas and GTIs and other little toy cars kept my ego in check. Natch those short courses in parking lots are not where a huge car like the Corvette or Mustang will shine.

- Back to the Corvette, it was a base car and I had it modified by a reputable shop, spending more than 70% of the MSRP on modifications including engine internals, suspension, brakes, you name it... before you add in spare wheels and tires, harnesses, and tires (did I mention tires?) and there was nearly always something that needed to be fixed, adjusted, replaced, enhanced, whatever. Yes, it was killer fast, I won several Solo 1 competitions with FTD, but it was so stiff and loud that I had to spend another 150% of MSRP on a truck and trailer to get it to the track.

Sticking with factory parts that are rigorously tested and certified has value to me.

But you do you, I do me, and we'll all have fun! Maybe I'll see you at Roebling Road one of these days?

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Funny though it overheats less than the Dark Horse due to the boiler design/ECU location. (imo).

"boiler design/ECU location?"

What does this mean?

 

[Junkyard Dog]

30 mins isnt going to cut it and cooling costs what it costs lol
. . .
. . . to cool and keep everything properly lubricated, aligned, and just not busted while beating on a car for hours on end at a road course.

So HPDE track sessions are typically 30 minutes or less. You mentioned "track days" in your next post.

What will you be doing that that is longer than 30 minutes, much less "hours on end?"

 

[Kennysum1]

So HPDE track sessions are typically 30 minutes or less. You mentioned "track days" in your next post.

What will you be doing that that is longer than 30 minutes, much less "hours on end?"

We rent the entire track as a group. Small group of friends who have been doing it for years. Last session I did was 4 hours straight testing a 911 for a race someone else will be driving in. I am not that skilled that I enter into races myself. I personally do not have the time to invest in ass in seat to get into race form lol. I spend a lot of time in the sim tho.

DM me and I will let you know next time we rent a course if you want to go! Its much more fun that way. It can get really pricy but honestly its worth it in the long run... since we already have the track paid for I don't care if you come as long as you bring your own insurance. The group that goes is pretty hardcore though... don't be surprised if you catch hell for anything and everything. If you crash your car we are going to make fun of you, after confirming everyone is ok. But the same rules apply for everyone! So even the best driver out there will get ripped on all day if they are slower than me for example lol. Safety is number 1 even if I may make it sound more loose. We do not play around there.

But these are not like guided HPDE events with a instructor. I spend tons of hours in the sim before ever sitting foot on the tracks. Even if I have raced them before. 30 min follow the leader sessions with some light passing are not in the cards for me or anyone I drive with. It would be the most boring 30 mins of my life.

You get faster 1 MPH at a time.... and we really like the flexibility of being able to run the cars and bring them in for data analysis and setup changes without having to worry about some preset schedule.

FYI that Porsche stayed on track the entire time with only refueling and tires needing to be changed. Insane cooling and braking on that setup. 3 hours of race pace and another hour divided up for qualifying laps with brief cool down periods as those laps cannot be sustained for long periods of time due to multiple things. A) Driver fatigue. B) HEAT (dam heat)

 

[Kennysum1]

"boiler design/ECU location?"

What does this mean?

The ECU for the Dark Horse and new 24+ GTs is behind the front plastic piece that looks like it could be a cooling duct if knocked out. The other side is open and does allow air to flow into radiators on the cars with Performance Packs and the Dark Horse. They moved the ECU to a terrible location imo.... (Dont cut my head off I do realize its not right behind the piece of plastic but up in the wheel well.)

The Base GT has both vents blocked. I like this as it pushes more air under and over the car, instead of 1 side being blocked and the other taking airflow in. Not going to make any difference at all (for what I am doing).

 

[Kennysum1]

No argument with anything you wrote. Just two additional thoughts for perspective:

- HPDE is not racing, and therefore I (me, personally) don't need to be the fastest out there. It's a mindset, largely set on my very first track event where I was in my kinda-new Corvette and got lapped, lapped I tell you, by some kid in his Camaro. That's the definition of humbling. We were both in the novice group, and he did get black-flagged. And I fried my brakes. There I am, coming down the front straight at 135 MPH, pumping the brakes like mad and my instructor starts laughing.

I think too, my autocross experience getting my butt handed to me by Miatas and GTIs and other little toy cars kept my ego in check. Natch those short courses in parking lots are not where a huge car like the Corvette or Mustang will shine.

- Back to the Corvette, it was a base car and I had it modified by a reputable shop, spending more than 70% of the MSRP on modifications including engine internals, suspension, brakes, you name it... before you add in spare wheels and tires, harnesses, and tires (did I mention tires?) and there was nearly always something that needed to be fixed, adjusted, replaced, enhanced, whatever. Yes, it was killer fast, I won several Solo 1 competitions with FTD, but it was so stiff and loud that I had to spend another 150% of MSRP on a truck and trailer to get it to the track.

Sticking with factory parts that are rigorously tested and certified has value to me.

But you do you, I do me, and we'll all have fun! Maybe I'll see you at Roebling Road one of these days?

Absolutely man! For sure different strokes for different folks. I should apologize to this thread... when I say track days I do not mean HPDE with a instructor in the car with me. We rent the entire track out for the day and I would just be using this Mustang to go out there and have some fun. There would be other cars there I would be driving also when I REALLY want to push something. This Mustang is my daily driver.

I think I confused the shit out of people lol.

Not many people want to daily a track car. I was daily driving a 1200 HP twin turbo car setup to run 6.XX second quarter miles lol.

Dude I for sure got my ego checked in drag racing. You can have all of the power in the world but if you weigh 5000 pounds and cannot hook up your moms civic will win. I also got smoked by a 75 year old dude in slick hustle one time. He only finished 7th in the class that day but we started racing for cash once the events were over. Dude took 5k off of my hands once he truly unleashed that car lol

I am hyper competitive and if I am not one of the fastest people on the track I am going to go home with that data and figure out why and load it into the sim the best I can. Setup and all. Just a trait I have had my entire life, but I am trying to relax it some. I should relax more and just enjoy it more as I am never going to be a pro racer lol. I have 2 companies to run.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

We rent the entire track as a group. Small group of friends who have been doing it for years. Last session I did was 4 hours straight testing a 911 for a race someone else will be driving in. I am not that skilled that I enter into races myself. I personally do not have the time to invest in ass in seat to get into race form lol. I spend a lot of time in the sim tho.

DM me and I will let you know next time we rent a course if you want to go! Its much more fun that way. It can get really pricy but honestly its worth it in the long run... since we already have the track paid for I don't care if you come as long as you bring your own insurance. The group that goes is pretty hardcore though... don't be surprised if you catch hell for anything and everything. If you crash your car we are going to make fun of you, after confirming everyone is ok. But the same rules apply for everyone! So even the best driver out there will get ripped on all day if they are slower than me for example lol. Safety is number 1 even if I may make it sound more loose. We do not play around there.

But these are not like guided HPDE events with a instructor. I spend tons of hours in the sim before ever sitting foot on the tracks. Even if I have raced them before. 30 min follow the leader sessions with some light passing are not in the cards for me or anyone I drive with. It would be the most boring 30 mins of my life.

You get faster 1 MPH at a time.... and we really like the flexibility of being able to run the cars and bring them in for data analysis and setup changes without having to worry about some preset schedule.

FYI that Porsche stayed on track the entire time with only refueling and tires needing to be changed. Insane cooling and braking on that setup. 3 hours of race pace and another hour divided up for qualifying laps with brief cool down periods as those laps cannot be sustained for long periods of time due to multiple things. A) Driver fatigue. B) HEAT (dam heat)

Sounds awesome, but I am not on that level (financially or in driver skill).

My oldest son sells Porsches for a living, so I get to hear all about their performance, and, yeah, I cannot help but watch some Youtube on track reviews of various Porsche models, but, again, not in my budget. This Dark Horse is the most expensive car I have ever owned.

I am still in instructed Novice. This car is my daily. I took it to the track completely stock and unmodified three days after I bought it.

And it was a blast, and I was hooked.

But, yeah, I am a novice. Just learning.

Thanks for sharing the additional information about your intended use. I think we all understand a little better now. It sounds like a great time!

 

[Q6543]

I’d start with a different platform.
Not sure what though, it’s either gonna be old or crazy expensive or just constantly breaking stuff.

if I really wanted to do high power laps I’d be looking at Porsche, where the weight is 1k lbs less off the jump, maybe a viper T/A etc.. I know the calvo and Nth guys live at 1200hp and up on tracks

you’re talking about some big money use case…

 

[Kennysum1]

Sounds awesome, but I am not on that level (financially or in driver skill).

My oldest son sells Porsches for a living, so I get to hear all about their performance, and, yeah, I cannot help but watch some Youtube on track reviews of various Porsche models, but, again, not in my budget. This Dark Horse is the most expensive car I have ever owned.

I am still in instructed Novice. This car is my daily. I took it to the track completely stock and unmodified three days after I bought it.

And it was a blast, and I was hooked.

But, yeah, I am a novice. Just learning.

Thanks for sharing the additional information about your intended use. I think we all understand a little better now. It sounds like a great time!

Don't let the financials scare you away. Like I said its already paid for so you could join us without costing any extra money for us. I am in the SouthEast but we rent all over the US. Seriously consider it if you ever want to take it out there and really give it hell. Doug or myself could easily be a basic instructor and we can see how that Dark Horse holds up under some hot hot laps!

It would be super fun to take my modded base GT also and a Dark Horse and put the same driver in them. I personally would not care if you used my car to take them both out and come back and tell us how it feels lol. As I am sure you know, you don't have to push the car all that hard to feel how planted and overall just how well it drives. Its also just a car it can be replaced.

Also it would be interesting to hear someone's opinion like yours. Since you own and have done some HPDE with the Dark Horse but still are learning a lot (I am also, just different levels!)

The better the car is setup though the more planted it will feel.... right up until its not lol. Not going to get a lot of warning from the car until it breaks loose on the super aggressive setups.

 

[Kennysum1]

I’d start with a different platform.
Not sure what though, it’s either gonna be old or crazy expensive or just constantly breaking stuff.

if I really wanted to do high power laps I’d be looking at Porsche, where the weight is 1k lbs less off the jump, maybe a viper T/A etc.. I know the calvo and Nth guys live at 1200hp and up on tracks

you’re talking about some big money use case…

This is my daily driver. I plan on using a C7 Grand Sport platform for a full blown tear down race car. I went with this because as a daily I did not want to spend a fortune on the platform and I am already familiar with the Coyote's from a drag racing stand point.

Don't get me wrong I do realize I will be spending 20k+ on these mods at a minimum. But I was at my wits end trying to decide on what car to buy as a daily driver... I looked and looked and looked. Finally decided fuck it just buy the Mustang and live with it.

Like I said in another post I was able to buy this 2025 GT Base for $40,500.... that leaves a LOT of money for modding. Compared to just going out and buying a M2 Comp or similar car that is somewhat of a decent daily that can hit the track.

Hell if anyone has any good ideas let me know. But I could not figure out a way to keep the budget in the $70k price range and getting what I wanted out of the car. Now I have $30k to play with in mods.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Step 1: Rims and tires - thinking of going 19 inch here as 20s will give me far less tires to choose from and not as much sidewall for real track days. Open to suggestions!

OK, now that you and I are both fully aware that you know much more about this than I do, lol, here goes.

One set of 19" for daily driving with a good summer tire.

Tires and wheels for track only, go with 18" - much better selection of tires and some very serious track tires come only in that size and not in 19" (e.g., Michelin slicks)

Apex and others make barrels that will fit over large brakes in the 18" size. The Dark Horse R race cars use 18" wheels now, too (and one of the drivers has informed me over on trackmustangsonline.com that the 19" Michelins sucked and were more like a 200 tw street tire than a true racing slick).

My suggestion is 18 x 11 square set up with 295 or 305 30 aspect ratio, or 68 series slick. Serious, sticky tires.

Those are my suggestions, but what do I know? I was tracking on the stock Pirelli Trofeo RS tires that Ford puts on the Dark Horse. I have not tried tracking with another tire. The Trofeo RS were very grippy, but they are expensive and do not last long. I was seriously impressed though, especially with braking performance (the tires were perhaps why this car was Motor Trends' historical record holder for shortest braking distance, beating out the Porsche GT2RS).

Step 2: Suspension Mods! This is the big one. I really dont know what the best pick is here. I probably want to go ahead and go straight to coilovers as I am thinking of starting here KW Variant 3 Coilover Kit and then camber plates and arms into?? I am not a suspension expert!

I would seriously suggest trackmustangsonline.com for this question.

Since you want to daily drive it, I guess the question is whether you really, really want it optimized for the track. This very question was being discussed by @krisk in the S650 section over there, but keep in mind when reading the suggestions being made that he trailers his car to the track. It is definitely not a daily driver.

https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/new-s650-suspension-setup-coilovers.21633/

Dont hesitate to throw build ideas in here. Everything is open for suggestions. The seats are coming out and all.

LOL, I was going to say seats. In my Dark Horse, my lower back ached before the end of the day from trying to stiffen up and hold myself in place as I made direction changes at the limits of the tires.

If you had a base GT you were doing this with hit me with your ideas! Idc about the warranty and budget is fairly open.

After the wheels and some very sticky tires, Vorshlag (I would not even consider another brand) camber plates for the front (cut the shock tower) and rear upper camber arms so you can set 3.5° in the front and 2° in the rear, or more aggressive if you find that after sticky tires your suspension has slack so that you need it, then set the camber to a more sane setting for the 19" street tires that you are going to mount to drive to work and the grocery store and baseball practice for the kiddos (the reason I have a Dark Horse is my wife saw me looking at C7 Z06s and said, "You have kids, and you need a back seat." It has been a big running joke in our house that I have a car with a back seat now - can't fit the whole family, but my 9 year old loves riding in it to baseball practice and is wearing a Dark Horse T shirt an uncle gave him for Christmas even as I am typing this).

Then upgrade the brakes - I bet you already know some good brands of rotors and pads from prior cars that make set ups for the S650 Mustang - are you willing to swap pads for track and street, like wheels and tires and camber?

P.S. Vorshlag had a 2024 Dark Horse development car, so they are going to know what fits and works on the S650. They also had an S550.

After the suspension is chosen (sorry I cannot be of any help there), then look at increasing the horsepower of the Coyote and definitely upgrade cooling. The Mishimoto radiator is the same thickness as the Dark Horse radiator. I do not know whether it is identical in other respects, but it seems like a good choice to get more cooling. Look at the Dark Horse R manuals out there online for other cooling mods, such as drilling out the fan shrouds (they show locations and all, but I have been hesitant about this on a daily driver that might get stuck in traffic for an hour in Atlanta traffic in August). If you are really going to run for hours you are going to want a differential oil cooler (a few companies make them, or you can buy the Ford version) and a separate engine oil cooler. Is this a manual or the auto 10 speed? Anyway, transmission cooler . . .

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