How do we save the mustang?

[Stonehauler]

He's obsessed with 0-60 times...

Car and Driver says:

Standing ¼-mile: 13.1 sec @ 109 mph

(2011....2010-2017 was the F10)

Not sure how those BMW's only make 400hp out of a twin turbo 4.4l V8

the 400hp is a lot closer to being 400 when measured at the rear wheels. It also has a ton more torque and starts way down low due to the turbos.

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[Ryunker]

Globally 4 door cars are far from dead. Hence why Ford sell the Mondeo / Fusion in China and the Middle East. German market is still very strong for 4 door / estate cars hence BMW/Merc/Audi offerings

Not in the USA.

 

[robvas]

the 400hp is a lot closer to being 400 when measured at the rear wheels. It also has a ton more torque and starts way down low due to the turbos.

Looking around the BMW forums it looks like they dyno about 340 stock (black, purple is tuned)

 

[Bikeman315]

Not sure how those BMW's only make 400hp out of a twin turbo 4.4l V8

BMW's are historically famous for underrating their horsepower numbers.

 

[Gregs24]

Not in the USA.

I know. I was pointing out that a global company makes products for a global market not just the US!

 

[Bikeman315]

Not in the USA.

You've just made his point. We are just a small part of the global market. And by the way the remaining sedans sold in the US, Camry, Accord, etc. actually do quite well.

 

[Gregs24]

yep, pretty lame

It was 15 years ago! Things have moved on a lot since then.

 

[AzkAdAsh]

I see what you're saying, but even as the mustang body stampings have changed over the years, they've always kept the same basic proportions. Something really dramatic, a huge proportion change, would basically require turning the coupe into a 2 seater.

I know someone is gonna say "Bring back a 30 grand V8" but we need to be realistic, for a variety of reasons, that's not gonna happen, and even if it did, it wouldn't work. It didn't do much for the 6th Gen Camaro when they tried to offer a more affordable V8 trim.

From where I'm standing, we need to talk about how to make 50-60 grand feel like good value, rather than acting like Ford's gonna be able to cut the price of V8 mustangs in half. Here's what I thinking, the normal 2+ 2 is compromised, the backseat isn't big enough for most people, but it adds weight, cost, and comprise as a sports car.

I'm gonna get some hate for this, but I say offer a 4 door mustang sedan with a V8 to appeal to people who want muscle car looks and feel, with a far more practical backseat. Maybe even consider the idea of making that 4 door a wagon to boost practical appeal. Then make the coupe a 2 seater, longer hood, sexier, lower, less practical than the 2 + 2, but more seductive, more special feeling.

So now you have two models, instead of a compromised 2+2, you'd created a sedan, and a 2 seater sports car. So now instead of one compromised model, you have 2 distinct models that are both the best they can be. If they share a platform, you can distribute those develop costs across 100k or more units a year, instead of 40k units. This should help mustang prices stabilize hopefully.

Then, and yeah, you guys won't like this, but Ford's making a super affordable EV compact platform. It's a night and day difference compared to Ford's current EV platforms, and is being engineered by the guy who actually made profitable, kinda affordable EVs with the model 3, same head engineer.

I kinda see this platform as the new falcon platform, not super powerful or outlandish, but cheap, small, flexible. Why not build a smaller, cheaper electric mustang? This could be the mustang moment for younger people, who are generally more receptive to EVs by far, but don't have really many options for cool, affordable ones. Give it 250 hp or so, starting price on the high 20s or low 30s, tons of visual customizations from the factory.

A little bit of everything is my idea, keep the V8 two door, make it even more desirable, offer an awesome four door using the same platform to help get costs under control, and bring back the days of the cheap, fun, humble mustang in a way that will actually improve Ford's fuel economy average. I'm open to almost everything within reason, I love this car, I'm not just gonna give up on it because things are rough right now.

Feel free to share your ideas. Images below help to illustrate the ideas I'm talking about.

I feel like at that point we've lost the Mustang and have instead created two new IPs—or revived two old ones—that only take inspiration from the Mustang. Buyers would be up-in-arms over the these new models leaching the Mustang name, just as they did, and rightfully so, with the Mach-E. What you're essentially proposing is a V8 Pinto and a V8 Thunderbird with the Mustang badge and body panels.

No. What the brand needs is an actual electric Mustang that is built on the same platform as the Eco's and GTs, rather than the Mach-E, which was built on a modified version of the Escapes C2 platform. In this way they'll be able to further reduce their CAFE rating, save costs by using the same platform for multiple vehicle types rather than trim levels as is the case now, and would tap into the market of younger, environmentally conscious professionals who are still looking for something that is reasonably priced while providing sports car stylings. Could even be an EV Convertible.

With that said, a new platform, and its associated development costs, would not be necessary, if they could implement this during the S650 lifecycle. Then since they're probably already developing the next platform, say S750, they could better plan for ICE and EV requirements as the future state, instead of rushing into a new platform now to meet all of those needs. We already know they are capable of modifying existing platforms to meet EV requirements as I've already mentioned with the Mach-E existing on a modified version of the C2 platform. (Personally, I think they should have called it the E-Scape, but what do I know? Clearly the suits with the MBAs know much better than the guy on the internet who has worked in manufacturing most of his adult life and also has a business degree.)

I digress. Creating an actual EV Mustang would allow the two models to share platforms, reducing production costs, which would lower the unit price of the ICE Mustangs marginally, depending on production volumes of each model. As much as some people hate the idea of an electric Mustang, it's a win-win.

 

[robvas]

BMW's are historically famous for underrating their horsepower numbers.

Not on that particular car, hence the 339whp dyno chart I posted

 

[Gregs24]

I feel like at that point we've lost the Mustang and have instead created two new IPs—or revived two old ones—that only take inspiration from the Mustang. Buyers would be up-in-arms over the these new models leaching the Mustang name, just as they did, and rightfully so, with the Mach-E. What you're essentially proposing is a V8 Pinto and a V8 Thunderbird with the Mustang badge and body panels.

No. What the brand needs is an actual electric Mustang that is built on the same platform as the Eco's and GTs, rather than the Mach-E, which was built on a modified version of the Escapes C2 platform. In this way they'll be able to further reduce their CAFE rating, save costs by using the same platform for multiple vehicle types rather than trim levels as is the case now, and would tap into the market of younger, environmentally conscious professionals who are still looking for something that is reasonably priced while providing sports car stylings. Could even be an EV Convertible.

With that said, a new platform, and its associated development costs, would not be necessary, if they could implement this during the S650 lifecycle. Then since they're probably already developing the next platform, say S750, they could better plan for ICE and EV requirements as the future state, instead of rushing into a new platform now to meet all of those needs. We already know they are capable of modifying existing platforms to meet EV requirements as I've already mentioned with the Mach-E existing on a modified version of the C2 platform. (Personally, I think they should have called it the E-Scape, but what do I know? Clearly the suits with the MBAs know much better than the guy on the internet who has worked in manufacturing most of his adult life and also has a business degree.)

I digress. Creating an actual EV Mustang would allow the two models to share platforms, reducing production costs, which would lower the unit price of the ICE Mustangs marginally, depending on production volumes of each model. As much as some people hate the idea of an electric Mustang, it's a win-win.

The old D2C platform used by the Mustang is completely unsuitable for an EV. Far more likely is they will use the new 'small EV' platform already in development for an EV Mustang and leave the ICE version to run on with the D2C with possibly one more facelift.

Why Ford’s Small Electric Vehicle Platform Makes Sense

 

[Rocket Man]

It was 15 years ago! Things have moved on a lot since then.

I'm not the one bringing up 10+ year old cars, he was.

 

[AzkAdAsh]

The old D2C platform used by the Mustang is completely unsuitable for an EV. Far more likely is they will use the new 'small EV' platform already in development for an EV Mustang and leave the ICE version to run on with the D2C with possibly one more facelift.

Why Ford’s Small Electric Vehicle Platform Makes Sense

I don't disagree. I'm only pointing out the steps that would need to be taken, hypothetically, to reduce the costs of the current gen Mustangs. I fully acknowledge that the platform would need heavy modification to be viable, but could be modified to suit both ICE and EV, creating an integrated platform for the next generation. I thought it was a better solution than trying to force a V8 Pinto and a V8 Thunderbird onto the same platform, which would have to be developed from scratch.

 

[Gregs24]

I don't disagree. I'm only pointing out the steps that would need to be taken, hypothetically, to reduce the costs of the current gen Mustangs. I fully acknowledge that the platform would need heavy modification to be viable, but could be modified to suit both ICE and EV, creating an integrated platform for the next generation. I thought it was a better solution than trying to force a V8 Pinto and a V8 Thunderbird onto the same platform, which would have to be developed from scratch.

The thing is Ford will have removed as much cost from the Mustang as they can by now, or at least minimised increases. D2C is end of life for sure.

 

[Bikeman315]

The thing is Ford will have removed as much cost from the Mustang as they can by now, or at least minimised increases. D2C is end of life for sure.

Agreed. The current S650 V8 will most likely have one mid life refresh and that's it. After that we will most likely have a Mustang but not in a form that most on here would be willing to buy. But I'm guessing the masses could possible eat it up.

 

[MaddNomad]

I feel like at that point we've lost the Mustang and have instead created two new IPs—or revived two old ones—that only take inspiration from the Mustang. Buyers would be up-in-arms over the these new models leaching the Mustang name, just as they did, and rightfully so, with the Mach-E. What you're essentially proposing is a V8 Pinto and a V8 Thunderbird with the Mustang badge and body panels.

No. What the brand needs is an actual electric Mustang that is built on the same platform as the Eco's and GTs, rather than the Mach-E, which was built on a modified version of the Escapes C2 platform. In this way they'll be able to further reduce their CAFE rating, save costs by using the same platform for multiple vehicle types rather than trim levels as is the case now, and would tap into the market of younger, environmentally conscious professionals who are still looking for something that is reasonably priced while providing sports car stylings. Could even be an EV Convertible.

With that said, a new platform, and its associated development costs, would not be necessary, if they could implement this during the S650 lifecycle. Then since they're probably already developing the next platform, say S750, they could better plan for ICE and EV requirements as the future state, instead of rushing into a new platform now to meet all of those needs. We already know they are capable of modifying existing platforms to meet EV requirements as I've already mentioned with the Mach-E existing on a modified version of the C2 platform. (Personally, I think they should have called it the E-Scape, but what do I know? Clearly the suits with the MBAs know much better than the guy on the internet who has worked in manufacturing most of his adult life and also has a business degree.)

I digress. Creating an actual EV Mustang would allow the two models to share platforms, reducing production costs, which would lower the unit price of the ICE Mustangs marginally, depending on production volumes of each model. As much as some people hate the idea of an electric Mustang, it's a win-win.

Yup. Pretty much Ford tried these things already and it didn’t work out. but what I noticed even with that info or many other examples is that they double down. Lol

I agree with your idea too

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