Auto StartStop

[Gregs24]

I'm quoting off of personal experience. Seen enough chain driven cars come in with timing issues for this exact reason.

The longer the chain, the more of a problem this will be. You don't see it in Toyota's since their chains are not typically a snake like that of the 4.2 found in Audi's.

If you drive the mustang enough in high stop/start situations, it is 100% a potential issue to look out for once you start getting up in the miles.

Whether or not you'll have to take the timing assembly apart before then is a different story, whether for phasers, guides, etc. But to not at least consider this as a possibility is rather shortsighted.

For this reason alone, I dislike Auto S/S

I think this is the valid point - after 100k miles or more the chances are the water pump will have failed or tensioners etc so the reality is very few cars will get to a point where S/S is the primary cause of a timing chain failure or problem (not just the Coyote). Yes a long chain will wear but will it really wear that much faster from hot stop starts than from all of those cold starts - probably not and by the time it is significant the engine will be a high mileage past its best item anyway.

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[CrossCajunMustang]

Yes, it does harm the car but it’s minor. It is something mandated by the government for emissions regulations. Manufacturers pay fine for not having cars equipped with Auto Stop/Start(I believe but cannot confirm). One research paper basically concluded that the amount damage it does to the car does not justify the amount of MPG it saves (dollar wise).

 

[CrossCajunMustang]

Yes, it does harm the car but it’s minor. It is something mandated by the government for emissions regulations. Manufacturers pay fine for not having cars equipped with Auto Stop/Start(I believe but cannot confirm). One research paper basically concluded that the amount damage it does to the car does not justify the amount of MPG it saves (dollar wise).

 

[Gregs24]

Well enjoy your ASS. You seem to be the only person ive seen on any car forum advocating for it.

It is odd how it is so hated in the US but elsewhere in the world it really isn't such a big deal. Some systems are better than others in execution but it really doesn't bother me when it kicks in (on many cars over the years) and none of them fell apart as a result of it.

In reality older S/S systems will be irrelevant in 10 or so years time as everything will be electrified in some way by then. I would be amazed if the Mustang isn't a hybrid by 2035 even if only a mild hybrid ISG type system.

Even exotica are hybrids now.

 

[AZ_Ryan]

Yes, it does harm the car but it’s minor. It is something mandated by the government for emissions regulations. Manufacturers pay fine for not having cars equipped with Auto Stop/Start(I believe but cannot confirm). One research paper basically concluded that the amount damage it does to the car does not justify the amount of MPG it saves (dollar wise).

And that's my point. I'm not saying it destroys your engine or causes significantly more wear. But you can't possibly argue the engine isn't better off without it. And the average 1 mpg trade off simply isn't worth it. I didnt buy a Mustang for gas mileage. Not to mention it's just annoying as hell. So glad I don't have to deal with it.

 

[Zig]

Yes indeed they can, although if you change a standard SLI type to AGM you must change the charge profile for it or you will shorten the life of the AGM battery.

Well the engine stops turning so by definition is stopped but as you say restarting is not like a cold start from fully off. In hybrids it is usually the transmission that restarts the engine using the HV battery.

“In any vehicle or equipment that will use the battery only for starting, lighting and ignition (SLI) requirements and has a properly working alternator, the OPTIMA REDTOP® Starting Battery will perform extremely well, often providing up to three times longer life than conventional batteries. If the vehicle has few or no aftermarket accessories and uses a stock or upgraded alternator, the OPTIMA REDTOP Starting Battery is the appropriate choice.”

https://www.optimabatteries.com/support

 

[turtletim]

I have some previous work experience with this. The government uses the value of .1 MPG towards CAFE requirements or they did some years ago. My testing experience for DOE produced data between 0 and .1 MPG. Although engine wear is small, it's still a net negative on engines. The long term effects or costs are passed on to the customer. But you can imagine that .1 MPG is huge for the industry when meeting regulations.

 

[Gregs24]

Yes, it does harm the car but it’s minor. It is something mandated by the government for emissions regulations. Manufacturers pay fine for not having cars equipped with Auto Stop/Start(I believe but cannot confirm). One research paper basically concluded that the amount damage it does to the car does not justify the amount of MPG it saves (dollar wise).

It depends on the driving circumstances but the impact of S/S is well researched. Which paper are you quoting? The savings are not primarily financial however, they are environmental both locally and globally.

Auto Stop-Start Fuel Consumption Benefits

Practical investigation and evaluation of the Start/Stop system's impact on the engine's fuel use, noise output, and pollutant emissions - ScienceDirect

 

[Cz_Ziemniak]

Yeah. I try not to mogg on something just for the sake of mogging it, but I have opinions that I carry. I'd like to think they are, at the very least, somewhat reasonable.

I will say though, being told that its an EPA emissions thing, then sitting through a lecture being told that on BMW's the primary programming concern is to keep occupants 'comfortable' (will switch the engine back on if the EC it believes occupant cabin is too warm without sufficient AC) left a sour taste in my mouth. I'm inclined to believe that mentality extends to a majority of brands.

So you claim its to reduce emissions, but if that means the cabin temp increases by a few degrees you say "fuck it" and run the engine? Nahhhhhhh.

 

[GrabThatBlue]

Here an article in The Netherlands and Germany, research by ADAC that Start Stop is bad for your car.

Many drivers have a love-hate relationship with the start/stop system that has been standard in most modern cars since 2012. It saves fuel and is good for the environment, but the systematic engine shutdown also causes many annoyances. Moreover, many drivers think that the frequent starting and stopping is bad for the engine.

Extra waste?
That's partly true, according to the ANWB (Royal Dutch Touring Club). Research has shown that wear on the crankshaft's main bearings is more common in modern models than before, and this is thought to be due to the start/stop system. "During the stop, the lubricating oil film even disappears, and upon subsequent restarting, there's even increased wear," according to a car expert from the interest group.

Many drivers are particularly irritated by the fact that starting takes a little longer, especially in a manual transmission car. It's no wonder that increasingly more "dongles" are being offered for the diagnostics port, for apps that permanently disable the start-stop system in cars with combustion engines.

Source: Dit systeem zorgt voor extra slijtage aan je motor en toch waarschuwt Duitse ANWB tegen uitschakelen | Auto | AD.nl

 

[Gregs24]

“In any vehicle or equipment that will use the battery only for starting, lighting and ignition (SLI) requirements and has a properly working alternator, the OPTIMA REDTOP® Starting Battery will perform extremely well, often providing up to three times longer life than conventional batteries. If the vehicle has few or no aftermarket accessories and uses a stock or upgraded alternator, the OPTIMA REDTOP Starting Battery is the appropriate choice.”

https://www.optimabatteries.com/support

Does the Corvette BMS have any settings you can change? Ford have different setting (profiles) for different battery types (rating and type) which you can change using Forscan or similar

 

[AZ_Ryan]

Yeah. I try not to mogg on something just for the sake of mogging it, but I have opinions that I carry. I'd like to think they are, at the very least, somewhat reasonable.

I will say though, being told that its an EPA emissions thing, then sitting through a lecture being told that on BMW's the primary programming concern is to keep occupants 'comfortable' (will switch the engine back on if the car once it believes occupant cabin is too warm without sufficient AC) left a sour taste in my mouth. I'm inclined to believe that mentality extends to a majority of brands.

So you claim its to reduce emissions, but if that means the cabin temp increases by a few degrees you say "fuck it" and run the engine? Nahhhhhhh.

Exactly. My wife's Jeep Grand Cherokee had ASS. During the summer when the engine would stop at a light, the AC would stop blowing cold and strong. Not cool when it's 110⁰ out.

 

[rijndael]

Moreover, many drivers think that the frequent starting and stopping is bad for the engine.

Extra waste?
That's partly true, according to the ANWB (Royal Dutch Touring Club). Research has shown that wear on the crankshaft's main bearings is more common in modern models than before, and this is thought to be due to the start/stop system. "During the stop, the lubricating oil film even disappears, and upon subsequent restarting, there's even increased wear," according to a car expert from the interest group.

This should be easily visible in a used oil analysis, and I have plenty for my Coyote. None show abnormal bearing wear and I use start/stop.

 

[Cz_Ziemniak]

Exactly. My wife's Jeep Grand Cherokee had ASS. During the summer when the engine would stop at a light, the AC would stop blowing cold and strong. Not cool when it's 110⁰ out.

So I see dodge doesn't account for the driver comfort. Atleast they really mean it when they say its to meet EPA standards, hahah

 

[Gregs24]

I have some previous work experience with this. The government uses the value of .1 MPG towards CAFE requirements or they did some years ago. My testing experience for DOE produced data between 0 and .1 MPG. Although engine wear is small, it's still a net negative on engines. The long term effects or costs are passed on to the customer. But you can imagine that .1 MPG is huge for the industry when meeting regulations.

That is considerably different to the papers I linked too? Is that 0.1mpg and if so how does it vary by vehicle because a 1 litre engine in a city will be very different to a 5 litre engine? Research suggests 7% is pretty usual with up to 15% in urban environments which would be a lot more than 0.1mpg. Is that just a theoretical 'credit' rather than actual vehicle data?

But as you say even small changes have a huge impact when multiplied up globally.

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