Traction Control

[steveo1960]

I keep seeing conflicting things though. Some say that having traction control and stability control on is what CAUSES a lot of those mishaps you see on YouTube where someone slams into the crowd or a pole. The one commenter talks about Mustangs having a secret 'target the crowd' feature. Kinda funny the way it's said. But not funny if you're a driver!

It's kind of like antilock brakes.
Very similar.

In the hands of an experienced driver who knows how to control a RWD car and uses that instinct and training, both antilock brakes and traction control CAN make things worse because neither is or can anticipate a driver who is experienced and thus may make things worse.

The system is designed for the lowest common denominator which is a driver who can point the car and step on the gas.

An experienced driver can confuse the system.

For example, antilock brakes are great and an inexperienced driver who needs to brake fast will mash the brake pedal to the floor, hold it there and the antilock system will do it's best to stop the car.

An experienced driver will asses the situation and modulate the brake pedal to keep control of the car and stop it.
In many cases this will drive the antilock computer bonkers and could potentially make things worse.

It's a similar concept with traction control.

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[Sinthor 5.56]

There are times when "automated traction control" as I will call it, is good and times when it simply won't help you and may hurt things. It was a long time ago, but I'm convinced it hurt my efforts to save the rear end of my '07GT before it did a head on into a divider wall.

Things happen so fast sometimes that NOBODY can deal with it. I had tracked cars a lot before this happened but to no avail when mixed with idiots on an interstate. The only good thing about this incident was that it totaled the car, LOL!

Ooof. Sorry about that. That sucks. I know there's a good bit of difference between those years rear ends and the current. Just hard to sort out all the noise. Bottom line, it's clearly better to be driving defensively and not like an idiot. Even then, someone ELSE can take you out but at least you don't do it yourself!

 

[Sinthor 5.56]

It's kind of like antilock brakes.
Very similar.

In the hands of an experienced driver who knows how to control a RWD car and uses that instinct and training, both antilock brakes and traction control CAN make things worse because neither is or can anticipate a driver who is experienced and thus may make things worse.

The system is designed for the lowest common denominator which is a driver who can point the car and step on the gas.

An experienced driver can confuse the system.

For example, antilock brakes are great and an inexperienced driver who needs to brake fast will mash the brake pedal to the floor, hold it there and the antilock system will do it's best to stop the car.

An experienced driver will asses the situation and modulate the brake pedal to keep control of the car and stop it.
In many cases this will drive the antilock computer bonkers and could potentially make things worse.

It's a similar concept with traction control.

Makes sense. I guess, whether you go with traction on or off, you'd better get familiar with the car so that you can most effectively deal with a bad situation should it arise. And...not driving like a moron likely helps as well.

 

[AZ_Ryan]

Ooof. Sorry about that. That sucks. I know there's a good bit of difference between those years rear ends and the current. Just hard to sort out all the noise. Bottom line, it's clearly better to be driving defensively and not like an idiot. Even then, someone ELSE can take you out but at least you don't do it yourself!

Independent rear suspension will react quit differently on a road course.

Bottom line for a newbie is this - respect the car, don't do stupid shit, leave the traction control on until you learn to drive without it. A lot of the noise you're hearing is from experienced road course guys who understandably don't like nannies. But that's not sound advise for a newbie street driver who's getting used to their car.

 

[LouG]

It's interesting to watch drivers losing it on track, you can tell the one's being saved by stability control, the car is reacting differently as the brakes are being applied selectively to straighten the car up. Whereas a good driver is controling the slide with steering which looks much smoother.

 

[Sinthor 5.56]

Independent rear suspension will react quit differently on a road course.

Bottom line for a newbie is this - respect the car, don't do stupid shit, leave the traction control on until you learn to drive without it. A lot of the noise you're hearing is from experienced road course guys who understandably don't like nannies. But that's not sound advise for a newbie street driver who's getting used to their car.

Roger that!

 

[steveo1960]

Ooof. Sorry about that. That sucks. I know there's a good bit of difference between those years rear ends and the current. Just hard to sort out all the noise. Bottom line, it's clearly better to be driving defensively and not like an idiot. Even then, someone ELSE can take you out but at least you don't do it yourself!

BINGO !!
ALWAYS, drive defensively, know your surroundings 360 at all times and don't do stupid things.

FWIW I attended the Bob Bondurant racing school way back when. I took the middle level course for police, LEO, SS agents and so forth and on day one the first thing the instructor said was that most accidents can be avoided my maneuvering and stepping on the gas pedal and most accidents are worsened by jamming on the brakes.
I never forgot that.

 

[Frogdog1]

Ooof. Sorry about that. That sucks. I know there's a good bit of difference between those years rear ends and the current. Just hard to sort out all the noise. Bottom line, it's clearly better to be driving defensively and not like an idiot. Even then, someone ELSE can take you out but at least you don't do it yourself!

You're exactly right. The wrecker driver told me I should not have lived through the drama but I had not a scratch or bruise. Wear your seat belt! The air bag didn't go off, thank goodness. I don't believe in them 100%.

Since then, when driving with the public, I drive way more defensively and ALWAYS away from other vehicles. One of the many reasons I wanted a Mustang GT is that I can drive away from others acting like clowns on the highways. THEY will kill you. That, training, tracking, and sport bike riding and training will make you a better driver/rider. I sold the sport bikes and kept the experience and defensive driving things I practice. To sum it up, I would tell anybody to know their specific car. Good training is worth it.

 

[LouG]

If you want to learn to control oversteer, buy a rear swing axle design car. early VW's, Skodas, Corvairs and for those tired of life Porsche 930 Turbo. ( Not strictly swing axle, but same effect)
Make a will first.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

These comments about electronic stability control and antilock brakes making the situation worse are very unconvincing. They seem to be a jumble of "I read something on the internet" combined with "I am such a good driver" humble brags.

I am a very experienced driver (this means I am old, lol!!!). I remember when antilock brakes were first made available on our police cars. I worked in a "busy" jurisdiction with lots of high speed shenanigans (chases, etc.). I was one of the officers sent to the advanced week long course that taught, among other things, threshold braking, as well as maneuvering on a wet skidpad while an instructor hits a button that locks up the back brakes to stop the bald, rear tires as you are driving . . .

And yet antilock brakes were a great addition to our fleet. I am not aware of any situation in which they made things worse, and they definitely contributed to making things better in many situations when maneuvering cars at the edge, especially when needing to bleed off speed and dodge something or somebody, experienced or not.

Also, as posted above, I ran an entire Track Day in Sport Mode, not knowing any better, and I pushed the car hard (as hard as a novice on the track can), including up to and beyond the car's lateral grip on Trofeo RS tires when hot, and the electronic stability control and traction control and antilock brakes never did anything disruptive or unstable or made things worse - I mean, they may have increased my lap times a bit, but they certainly did not contribute to less control over the vehicle. Indeed, I was shocked at how much braking power this vehicle has, and, in spite of practically standing on the brake pedal coming downhill into turn 10A at Michelin Road Atlanta, I did not "feel" the antilock brakes engage at all. Nothing was turned off. I just put the car in Sport Mode.

I will use Track Mode in the future on the track. I am very curious to know the difference. I think I know one thing it will help that happened, but that is a topic for another time.

 

[AZ_Ryan]

Yeah, I don't get the antilock brake comment either. Never have I ever heard of any track complaint about antilock brakes causing a problem.

I think traction lock and stability control also get misunderstood a bit too. At least in terms of how they work and what they do. Some car people like to brag about their driving skills and distain for "nannies" like it's a badge of honor.

I drove to work in Track mode this morning. So good. Yes, you do need more pedal compared to Sport, but the linear throttle input never makes you guess what the car is going to do, and the shifting is excellent. No hanging gears and perfect downshifting. And the exhaust note might as well be angles singing.

 

[Zig]

Yeah, I don't get the antilock brake comment either. Never have I ever heard of any track complaint about antilock brakes causing a problem.

I think traction lock and stability control also get misunderstood a bit too. At least in terms of how they work and what they do. Some car people like to brag about their driving skills and distain for "nannies" like it's a badge of honor.

I drove to work in Track mode this morning. So good. Yes, you do need more pedal compared to Sport, but the linear throttle input never makes you guess what the car is going to do, and the shifting is excellent. No hanging gears and perfect downshifting. And the exhaust note might as well be angles singing.

Anti-lock made pumping the brakes while engine braking in a manual much easier.

the adapted usage changed the training

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