Can you turn the boost down below 7 lbs on a Hellion Twin Turbo kit?

[LouG]

Meth setup/tune is more complicated (you have to pull fuel for the meth you add)

Chance that something goes wrong with the meth system, pump failure, clogged jet, doesn't turn on...

Your intake manifold was designed to flow air, not water mist/meth, you end up with unequal distribution

Most people will say you can't push meth+93 as far as you can e85

It has a few advantages, though. You can keep your existing fuel system since water/meth is all supplementary. Where with e85 you need bigger pump(s), injectors, etc at a certain point

Does this apply to MW50 though? I did none of that, I used the jet recommended by the tuner and ran the pump at 6 - 9psi over max boost, the jet was pre blower so distribution was not an issue. I put static timing back to stock instead of 6 dgrees retarded that Sebring said, and plug readings were always fine. When I was able to check AF ratios it was good at WOT through the rev range. ( Not on a dyno), it ran fine for many years without attention. I did have a circuit that triggered a warning light if the pumps failed to run.
It may not be a popular system these days, but it was well proven in aviation piston engines.

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[robvas]

Does this apply to MW50 though? I did none of that, I used the jet recommended by the tuner and ran the pump at 6 - 9psi over max boost, the jet was pre blower so distribution was not an issue. I put static timing back to stock instead of 6 dgrees retarded that Sebring said, and plug readings were always fine. When I was able to check AF ratios it was good at WOT through the rev range. ( Not on a dyno), it ran fine for many years without attention. I did have a circuit that triggered a warning light if the pumps failed to run.
It may not be a popular system these days, but it was well proven in aviation piston engines.

Does that mean 50/50 mix?

That's what I ran. Without any issues. At least that I knew of. Sprayed pre and post blower (centrifugal)

Can't really tell without an O2 sensor on each header tube but you can be sure it's not an exact or even distribution.

Not sure what the old WW2 setups looked like but I'm guessing lots of differences compared to a modern Mustang engine

 

[LouG]

Does that mean 50/50 mix?

That's what I ran. Without any issues. At least that I knew of. Sprayed pre and post blower (centrifugal)

Can't really tell without an O2 sensor on each header tube but you can be sure it's not an exact or even distribution.

Not sure what the old WW2 setups looked like but I'm guessing lots of differences compared to a modern Mustang engine

Yes, 50/50. The Germans called it MW50 and the name stuck. There were a lot of engine differences, very low compression ratios, the Allies had up to 150 octane at times, but usually 100. MW50 allowed considerable boost increases for short periods.
The weird thing was that a subsequent owner of my MX5 contacted me 2 or 3 years after I sold it, to find out what the tank and plumbing was for. He'd never topped up the tank and it ran dry for a good 2 years. The engine didn't suffer any problems though.
I used water/meth because it was hard to source and plumb an intercooler back in those days. This was a cheap solution if I decided to go for a smaller pulley and larger injectors. I never got around to that though.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Why turn it down so low?

Apparently not low enough.

I was researching and ran across a Youtube channel called Boyd Bumbera. He installed twin turbos on an S650 Mustang back before there was tuning (almost a year ago). He ran 6 pounds of boost and with no tuning, added race gas to the tank and stuck it on the dyno several times. Horsepower was 5 something, then 611, and, by the last video, after he switched spark plugs to cure a misfire of some sort, 638 horsepower (the main difference being able to run a higher rpm using a different gear before the car shut off the power due to a speed limiter, is what it appeared to be).

No injectors. No tuning. No fuel pump. Nothing. Just a twin turbo kit and a tank of race gas and 6 psi of boost and a new set of spark plugs. He was also remarking that he was going to run the tank empty and start experimenting with lower octane.

He seems to have stopped making Youtube videos several months ago, so I can't see whatever happened or if he ended up tuning it or what, or I cannot search Youtube well enough.

But he remarked that his stock baseline was around 420 hp, so that is about a 200 hp increase with 6 psi of boost.

It looks like a turbo adds a lot more horsepower for the same level of boost as compared to a belt drive blower. Torque was very high, too, but I did not memorize the number to post here.

Just a little more info as I keep researching.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

He still posts on instagram, it looks like, but no real updates about this car. Odd.

 

[135Hoser]

What's the end goal here?

Running the factory tune and hoping the car learns enough to dump fuel in based on parameters seems like a recipe for disaster.

Sure, throw enough octane at it, and pull enough timing to combat the knock. The fuel models will only go so far.

If you want more power but don't want to void your warranty, go with the ford performance whipple kit. How a supercharger is packaged is much nicer for these engines / engine bay. You can run a larger pulley if you want to make less boost.

If you're tracking the car and driving it hard, you will max out the cooling system on stock power after a few laps in a hot climate. Adding power will only exacerbate this.

 

[robvas]

If you want more power but don't want to void your warranty, go with the ford performance whipple kit. How a supercharger is packaged is much nicer for these engines / engine bay. You can run a larger pulley if you want to make less boost.

Not quite true. You basically void your factory powertrain warranty (5 years/60,000 miles), and you are then under the Whipple/FordPerformance "warranty" (3 years/36,000 miles). It's also valid from the date you bought your car. So if you already have had the car a year, and 15,000 miles, you only get 2 years and 21,000 miles worth of 'warranty'.

Plus, the warranty only covers $2,000 if you blow the transmission, and $7,500 for the engine.

 

[135Hoser]

Not quite true. You basically void your factory powertrain warranty (5 years/60,000 miles), and you are then under the Whipple/FordPerformance "warranty" (3 years/36,000 miles). It's also valid from the date you bought your car. So if you already have had the car a year, and 15,000 miles, you only get 2 years and 21,000 miles worth of 'warranty'.

Plus, the warranty only covers $2,000 if you blow the transmission, and $7,500 for the engine.

omfg semantics. Show me what kind of support you get if you blow your motor running a kit supplied/engineered by anyone else. Show me what ESS offers on their superchargers. Edelbrock offers a warranty for their previous gen kits. VMP offers the same warranty ford performance / whipple does. Nothing from hellion.

You pay ~$1,000 more and get $7500 for a motor and $2000 towards a transmission. If memory serves you also get some amount towards axles as a one time thing. all one time warranty replacements. So you get your full purchase price back in the form of warranty should you need it.

Will you need the warranty? Maybe not with good aftermarket tuning.

 

[robvas]

omfg semantics. Show me what kind of support you get if you blow your motor running a kit supplied/engineered by anyone else. Show me what ESS offers on their superchargers. Edelbrock offers a warranty for their previous gen kits. VMP offers the same warranty ford performance / whipple does. Nothing from hellion.

You pay ~$1,000 more and get $7500 for a motor and $2000 towards a transmission. If memory serves you also get some amount towards axles as a one time thing. all one time warranty replacements. So you get your full purchase price back in the form of warranty should you need it.

Will you need the warranty? Maybe not with good aftermarket tuning.

Just don't say you don't void your warranty when it's not true. There is a lot of misunderstanding about how the warranty works with dealer installed superchargers

 

[135Hoser]

Just don't say you don't void your warranty when it's not true. There is a lot of misunderstanding about how the warranty works with dealer installed superchargers

Install hellion twin turbo kit or ESS kit = Warranty void, have fun.
Install whipple based supercharger w/ whipple tune and keep the whipple tune and don't touch anything else = Some kind of supplemental warranty, do a moments research on your own before dropping $10k on hardware.

I'll just not say anything in the future so I don't have to listen to a bunch of other autists going on about how suggesting a kit that comes with a supplemental warranty means I'm saying that it bigly exceeds your factory warranty, starts whenever you last put 93 octane in and you get a free pony w/ stable fees covered.

 

[robvas]

Nobody is talking about other kits and who wants the lame ass whipple Stage 1 anyway?

 

[Junkyard Dog]

What's the end goal here?

Running the factory tune and hoping the car learns enough to dump fuel in based on parameters seems like a recipe for disaster.

Sure, throw enough octane at it, and pull enough timing to combat the knock. The fuel models will only go so far.

If you want more power but don't want to void your warranty, go with the ford performance whipple kit. How a supercharger is packaged is much nicer for these engines / engine bay. You can run a larger pulley if you want to make less boost.

If you're tracking the car and driving it hard, you will max out the cooling system on stock power after a few laps in a hot climate. Adding power will only exacerbate this.

I am not sure why you posted or which post you are addressing. If it is the one directly above yours, post #20, he did that when the tuning had not yet been unlocked for the S650.

So, yeah, the goal was to do a twin turbo with what he could using what was available at the time.

This meant no tuning.

I posted it only because I was shocked at how much power only 6 pounds of boost generated. Apparently boost on a turbo and boost on a Whipple are two different creatures.

The later part of your post (the last two paragraphs) seems to be addressing me and my original reason for posting the thread. You have not read my posts carefully. I will just run through what you posted in order. First, a Whipple cannot be run at the track. A 4" pulley is the largest that is available. You cannot get though a session on track in the summertime with the boost that a 4" pulley will generate on the Whipple. I think that addresses that entire paragraph.

Your last paragraph, which is only one sentence, appears to basically tell me to give up.

Well, thanks for your input. Giving up is certainly one option. Maybe I will end up there. I don't know yet. I will not end up there, however, without more carefully digging into what is available and the capabilities of each. I do not even know yet how low you can set the boost on different systems on a Coyote. Every manufacturer seems to be aiming for the maximum boost possible on 93 octane so they can brag about horsepower numbers for marketing purposes.

Minimum boost is ignored.

This will be a long term research project for me. I am not pulling the trigger on a New Years sale and installing whatever was cheapest.

 

[robvas]

@Junkyard Dog

do the Whipple and just use SmoothBoost to effectively turn it off while you're doing your track stuff

https://www.smoothbooststore.com/pr...rol-system-by-smoothboost-whipple-3-0-mustang

and honestly you could do the same with a TurboXS electronic wastegate on a centri car. Maybe save a thousand bucks and wire up a line lock or something on the BOV vacuum line?

 

[Junkyard Dog]

But, yeah, for those getting caught up in stupid internet arguments or any tangents from the thread, or just now looking at this thread, here is the purpose:

Can you turn the boost down low on a Hellion kit?

You can't on a Whipple kit. You can turn it down a very little from what ships with the Stage 1, by purchasing a 4" pulley, which is ever so slightly larger than the Stage 1 pulley. I have confirmed that the 4.25" and 4.5" pulleys will not work with the Whipple kits for Coyote. There is not enough clearance.

It appears to be a maybe on the Hellion kit, even if it requires procuring an aftermarket spring for the waste gate or fabricating something to work to reduce the wastage spring pressure.

End goal is something that can give boost for the street or occasional drag strip jaunt but can be turned way down for an HPDE track weekend, 5 sessions of 25-30 minutes each day for two days, without heating up and expanding the oil rings until the ring gap disappears and they pop off the piston's ring lands. Secondarily but related, without driving the oil temperature and coolant pressure too high to finish a session on track.

The Dark Horse I drive has the handling package and all the extra cooling that comes with it. The radiator is larger than a GT radiator. It has an oil cooler, transmission cooler, and differential cooler. I am an inexperienced, "Novice" level track dude, so it may be that all of this is not enough even as the car sits once I get better at driving. I do not know that, but I am also looking at supplemental or improved cooling, including carefully reviewing what the Dark Horse R cars are doing (e.g., drilling holed in their fan shroud and replacing the radiator with a custom aluminum dual pass radiator) and will consider going even beyond that if necessary.

For now, however, a threshold question is, can I boost the engine with something where I can adjust the boost and experiment? Am I limited to 8 pounds as a floor? Or can I try 7, or 6? I posted the instagram post above because only 6 pounds hit 638 horsepower to the wheels with his twin turbos. That is a lot. Our cars are 400-420 at the wheels as they sit? What if a 100 horsepower bump (say 520) will eat up the straights with alacrity but keep my car on track for the entire session? What boost does it take to get there? 5? Can I turn it down to 4 lbs of boost?

Which systems are this adjustable?

Is Hellion?

 

[Junkyard Dog]

@Junkyard Dog

do the Whipple and just use SmoothBoost to effectively turn it off while you're doing your track stuff

https://www.smoothbooststore.com/pr...rol-system-by-smoothboost-whipple-3-0-mustang

and honestly you could do the same with a TurboXS electronic wastegate on a centri car. Maybe save a thousand bucks and wire up a line lock or something on the BOV vacuum line?

Thanks - I had not heard about this before. I will take a look.

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