The best Ponycar...

[Zig]

OK, right. I am just happy to drive around and race at an even 500 HP and almost 500 TQ. From what I see in the community these engines should be good for 200k miles reliably.

If it was promoted the same as an ev it would be in the thousands not hundreds. Evs report their peaks without the benefit of multiplication (gears). Get an ev to gen 1,000+ ft lbs of torque for exactly how long? Wait did you say it gets hot? Still gotta control the temperature (byproduct) but we won’t be able to manipulate it like exhaust so hmm wasted energy to maintain optimal conditions while continually connected and trickling ?

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[Karguy]

I spent 3+ years on the dyno right up to the end (and slightly beyond) trying to save the 392's existence.
We could change anything but the block casting to improve performance but they came to the conclusion that the casting had to be changed. At which point they pulled the plug on the engine entirely and announced its withdrawl.

Due to the change in valvetrain friction the camphaser should really be changed at first service with one that has 1 bias spring and not 2 and the ECU programmed to suit. It's free performance that's being pissed away as it stands.

Correct there is no replacement for displacement, but the displacement is not being used wisely.
If you wanted a 6l+ engine a v12 would produce more power & torque and be less stressed doing it.
100BHP/L is a good target for NA and 200BHP/L to turbo.

Interesting ! Did you work for FCA ? What do you think is the optimal cc per cylinder on a n/a engine as the best compromise between hp/torque/fuel consumption/reliability as in piston speed ? Anyways I see you point that probably the BMW 3 liter inline 6 makes the most power/torque/mpg but a V8 has more soul as in sound ! What I like about the 392 is the fact that it has more torque than the LT1 and it revs much more freely like a Coyote up to 6000 rpm where it makes power like the Coyote does between 6500 and 7000 rpm thus feeling much more powerful from idle to 6000 rpm and lasting longer due to much lower rpm operating range and also not needing long timing chains & tensioners ! Also port fuel injection is a plus for me as the intake valves dont build up carbon deposits…I think Dodge/Mercedes did a great job back in 2007 when they designed the 525hp/515lb-ft 6.4 Apache V8 ! What I dont understand and maybe you can enlighten me is why they did not use a aluminum block which could have saved 70 or so pounds and how the variable valve timing works on a single cam engine because it affects intake and exhaust valves at the same time ! Or if this matters ? I think the system BMW uses on their motorcycles is probably the best where they have two cam lobes one for torque and one for power called shift cam Otherwise really like the 392 as it revs freely and you can surf that mountain of Torque in combination with the short 3.90 rear and sturdy Tremec a treat…Also the dual spark plugs are great as I never heard knock like on a LS or LT accelerating hard…Too bad that Stellantis ripped out their heart and soul by letting the Hemi and with this a piece of americana go…

 

[Karguy]

One more thing I thing 500 hp and about 650-700 nm of torque is about the maximum what a front engine , rwd car can put down safely anyways so these lower rpm higher

I worked for a supplier to FCA/Stellantis we / they threw a lot of parts at the engine to justify it's existence, doing everything we could to not change the block casting.
That was a hardline from them they would not invest in new tooling. Which is why it remained cast iron.

We did them a camphaser & shaft that allowed for variable valve overlap AND timing with one control signal. (It was mechanically programmed relationship not true independent) it got them 90% of the way towards the TI-VCT on the coyote..
We even supplied camshaft to a phaser competitor of ours to help keep the engine alive. They were going to do a phaser 'shoot off' we didn't mind so much if it meant they used our cam!

Our system was in use on the later Viper engines, it's a concentric camshaft (two cam's in one shaft. one is inside the other, with the lobes of the inner shaft pinned through slots in the outer shaft)

As for V8's having soul ... it's why i have a dark horse on order! The only 'murican V8 that comes in RHD. Do remember the coyote has port & direct fuel injection and twin cam phasers. It's how they can hit 100bhp/l

500CC/cyl is a good number it can be pushed out to around 575cc (hence 2.3 4 cyl's, 4.6 v8's of days gone by, 3.3 v6's etc)

For reference the F140 engine is part of the FCA/Stellantis group, and is between 6 and 6.5l V12,
The 6.3 and 6.5 have the same 700+NM (low 500's lb/ft) but because they can rev they produce between 700 and 800 bhp depending on tune.
So same displacement, same torque, 50% more power.

Thanks for the insight ! What year did you guys played with different castings ? I take it was aluminum which would have meant to design a new block ! Wondered why FCA never used the V10 type cam which was also a single cam pushrod design but like you said the intake and exhaust lobes were separated as far as valve timing goes but not on the 345 , 392 Hemi as also 6.2 LT1/2 GM put in Corvette and Camaro…Obviously the system in the Viper was technically more sophisticated and more expensive to produce but separating intake and exhaust valve timing on variable timing might not bring this much of a benefit ? What is your opinion on that matter ? The BMW shiftcam system works amazing having 2 separate cam lobes , one for low to mid rpm torque and then it gets a steeper hotter cam lobe for more high rpm horsepower while the exhaust cam stays the same…It works amazing unlike the cruder Honda V-Tec systems…But cast iron blocks on the Hemi are very sturdy and the only advantage I can see of a aluminum block is maybe 75 lbs weight saving…Otherwise the Hemi is still a great engine that revs faster than a LT1 and has the most Torque from idle to 6000 rpm…Also dual sparks are great especially with the bad gas here in the US…The Coyote sounds good but lacks the Torque that pushes you into the seat and is so much fun…That is why I think more Bore for 5.8 liters would solve that problem but Ford wont invest into new tooling the used since 1991 when the 4.6 came out that only allows for 93mm bore…But also the chassis in the Mustang is not as good as it should have been better than the alpha Camaro that came out in 2016…Too much movement in the chassis and it understeers followed by oversteer while the alpha is just neutral and much easier to drive fast.The Challenger WB is for me the most fun because from wr certain steering angle it just rotates into the turn on and off the throttle ! As for power you mentioned I think for a front engine / rwd car about 500hp/lb-ft are about the max you can put down unless you have a 911 with more weight over the drive axle…If you want more its either smoke or AWD…LOL

 

[Zig]

It’s extremely difficult to justify new castings and tooling when you won’t be able to profit. Kinda hard to sell an ice powerplant without the required magnetic attraction of fuel free operation.

 

[Karguy]

The phaser for the viper cam requires two control valves and two cam sensors to work. Which was not possible on the Hemi without a casting change. The oil path to the existing phaser was already a bodge (There is a grove behind the thrust plate)

The benefits to the viper were significant and were de-tuned / limited operation for the majority of it's life. The engine was only used to it's full potential in a drag edition of a challenger / charger ? That has a 2 speed auto box.

The engine had so much torque the first prototype just sat there spinning its tyres. So they put slicks on it.
Then it blew it's gearbox, they beefed that up it and then it separately blew its clutch, prop shaft, diff and half shafts. (each time they beefed one thing up the next weakest link blew) when they finally sorted all of those it broke traction so often it was undriveable on anything but sunny days and slicks. (The viper was already a handful)
Only after all that did they come back and ask what did we do to their engine, could we turn it down as they weren't going to upgrade the entire drivetrain to cope.

American manufacturers hate changing tooling for castings, example ford ran the 'kent' engine from 1959-2002.

For OHC engines we do continuously variable valve lift systems and lobe switching systems as well (like honda vtec system) cost is always a big driver with all oems. They will try and get away with the minimum they can, rare is an oem that'll go here is a clean sheet of paper lets make the best engine we can.
Only one chinese company did that and the result was a 1.2 3cyl engine with variable compression and cvvl&t on intake. It hit over 200bhp and 250lb/ft of torque

Thanks for the insight ! I wish FCA would have given the Hemi another upgrade like lighter aluminum block and a cam like in the V10 but I wonder if the differences would have made that much of a difference as GM also employed a single phase cam for their LT1 new for 2014 or LT2 in 2020 which is basically the Same engine except for dry sump lubrication and headers…As for tooling Ford still uses the 33 year old modular 4.6 stuff…That is why the Coyote has such a small bore/displacement…

 

[Karguy]

Keith looking at the specs the last Viper from 2017 making 645 hp and 600 lb-ft from 8400cc compared to 485 hp and 475 lb-ft from 6400cc in Charger/Challenger works to 75 hp and 71 vs 74 lb-ft per liter which tells me that separating the cam phasing on intake and exhaust side was probably not worth it…Also the 70-100 pounds less of an aluminum block would have been offset that a cast iron block is more sturdy and had benefits for truck and Hellcat applications…But in theory it would have been nice to see a lighter block and two different cam lobes like BMWs slick shift cam system that really works awesome which could have given the Challenger/Charger the magic 500 on hp and torque and these awesome cars another 5 years of life….Because as they are or were they are close to perfect…All I can think of is rev-match,short throw pistol grip shifter,better foot rest,hand operated and not foot operated hand brake and maybe foldable headrest for the back seats and 360 degree camera…Small things that show how close they are !

 

[Karguy]

You are spot on, vvt isn't a magic bullet it's not a turbo the gains are difficult to communicate to Joe public, and to explain why their engine costs $500 more (around 100 per phaser) as the on paper gains are marginal. 5% sounds about right for peak.
You also get around 5% economy benefit.
But the big change is in the drivability from part load (throttle response) and the area under the curve.
But if you blind tested people with two otherwise identical cars they'd be able to tell the difference between a vvt and non vvt car.

Done right you can get the low end torque of a street cam and the top end power of a race cam.

The viper engine they used recently was from the design done around 20 years ago that was undrivable in a normal viper.
Remember that car didn't have traction control.

840cc per cylinder was to big to get any decent bhp/l out of it when coupled with a 2v pushrod it didn't help.

Eagle eyed viewers would of spotted an lt1 upside down in the pic I posted before.

If you look back through the development of the coyote Ford have made significant improvements to it over the years.

I'm not sure what it is about American manufacturers not wanting to invest in new castings the situation has been the same for the last 20+ years that I've worked with them

Thanks for the insight ! I appreciate it ! We live in weird times for sure with Dodge basically gone and GM only having the V8 with AARP automatic in the priced out of reach Corvette only Ford remains if you want V8 sound paired with a manual gearbox but unfortunately without the american V8 low to midrange torque experience which is so satisfying…Watched a video today TFL driving 3 half ton trucks over a 110 mile loop…The Coyote did 19 mpg , 6.2 GMC 18 mpg and the 3 liter Turbo in the new Ram 17 mpg… Keith you living in the UK how come the S650 having only 446 hp in europe ! I know the stupid EU requires the particle filter but BMW , AMG or Porsche have the same power on both sides of the pond…

 

[Karguy]

About your sentiment about american manufacturers not wanting to invest that biting them in their azz…Dodge/Chrysler sold a Lot of Challengers & Chargers since 2008 but now with the Hemi gone they might be gone too.GM let the koreans and japanese have the car market and really only sells pickups and suvs.With gas prices going up like they have not a good business model.Ford went cheap with the Mustang basically calling the same 10 year old product with a few cosmetic changes 7th generation but sales are low despite Camaro & Challenger gone not attracting conquest customers…Bad economy,high interest rates,high gas prices not really new product because Ford did not want to invest the money thinking old is good enough with domestic competitors gone…Who knows what the future brings ? Maybe the chinese will show the legacy automakers how its done with some affordable & bitching V8s…

 

[Zig]

Low mustang sales are all fords fault. Just look at this forum it's full of people ordering cars to then get the cold shoulder from ford and ignored so they go off and buy something else.

The limited numbers coming to the UK is having a similar effect it's not increasing demand people are going elsewhere instead from the way they're being treated.

As for Chinese they tried ICE for a little while but they're now making a lot of EV's as electricity is plentiful out there.
They are making a push with large H2 ICE engines.

As for the Germans giving the same power both sides of the pond ... it's more that you're not getting the extra power available that we're loosing out.
Turbo cars are also far less sensitive to particulate filters as they already have the turbo in the exhaust creating a lot of back pressure.

If you want low end torque ... try a MHEV (do you guys get them yet ?) They're basically a regular powertrain with an electric motor to fill in low end torque and a small battery that is charged by energy recovery.
The added weight is negligible.
The motor can either be direct drive, an electric supercharger or both. it allows manufacturers to use a laggy turbo and fill in the lag with electric boost.

Carb (california air resource board) requires no carb (carburetor-fuel powered), only electric via mandate.

 

[Karguy]

Keith here where I live lots of new Mustangs sit unsold on dealer lots so there is plenty of product build sitting unsold on dealer lots…My local dealer has 10 and its a small town.Even worse they are buried with pickups…As for the hybrids I think you mentioned using basically Formula 1 technology and not extra weight of heavy battery and electric motor powering the front axle like the E-Ray that has maybe additional electric power for one lap on the track is the new 911 with the electric no lag turbos you mentioned that makes supercharging obsolete technology from WW2 used in planes then…Only caveat here is that they use Lambda 1 which leaves lots of power on the plate…And PDS only.But this is probably due to the more than stupid EU regulations that should stay there as also the UK and CA will see come 2035 that ICE is the only way to go as the chinese just announced they will go ICE until 2060…Which is forever

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