FLEX FUEL TUNE - ETA?

[ChitownStang]

When will it be released?
Who will offer one?

Personally I loved the convenience of the Flex tune when I had one from Wengerd on my 21 Mach 1.
Also had a Livernois Flex tune on it before the Wengerd. but didn't like their 10-speed shifting so much.
They both ran flawlessly switching fuels for track or Winter and had noticeable boost in power everywhere in the curve just with E70 which is all I get by me.
Some tuners say people do not follow the procedure so they do offer anymore, which I find to be lame excuse.

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[Junkyard Dog]

Several tuners have said they have no plans to offer it.

 

[ChitownStang]

Wengerd said eventually they will have one. Lund told me he is thinking about offering again since the gen4 has better Ethanol learning than gen 3 did.
PBD had one before so they will eventually have it too probably.
Livernois also told me eventually.
Waiting game for now I guess.

 

[engineermike]

Poking around today and found the s650 has the same problem the s550 did. The fuel line volumes are all set to 0 grams by default in the Mustang. This means when you refuel and switch fuels, the learned ethanol will “lock in” before the new fuel reaches the rail and you’re stuck with incorrect learned e% until you restart the learning by a kam clear or refill. The needed parameters aren’t defined in hpt, which is what everyone is using. If someone claims to be making flex tunes, I’d be doubtful. I confirmed that the gen4 f150 values are all properly populated.

 

[ChitownStang]

Poking around today and found the s650 has the same problem the s550 did. The fuel line volumes are all set to 0 grams by default in the Mustang. This means when you refuel and switch fuels, the learned ethanol will “lock in” before the new fuel reaches the rail and you’re stuck with incorrect learned e% until you restart the learning by a kam clear or refill. The needed parameters aren’t defined in hpt, which is what everyone is using. If someone claims to be making flex tunes, I’d be doubtful. I confirmed that the gen4 f150 values are all properly populated.

So wouldn’t an easy solution just be go top it off after a few miles when going from 93 to E85 or back. Otherwise it’s not an issue when staying with same fuel.
Juggernaut just confirmed on FB that this Gen learns E faster and they have a flex tune available

 

[engineermike]

So wouldn’t an easy solution just be go top it off after a few miles when going from 93 to E85 or back.

No. Even if it did work, you’d be completely dependent on the owner to do a weird “fill up, drive a little, fill up again” to make sure it doesn’t learn wrong routine every time you switch.

Secondly, it actually gauges the amount of fuel in the tank vs the fill amount to determine if a relearn is reinitiated. If you just top off a couple of gallons it won’t relearn. However, if you add a couple of gallons to a near-empty tank it will initiate a relearn. It’s pretty clever logic actually.

Otherwise it’s not an issue when staying with same fuel.

Correct but that sorta defeats the purpose of a flex tune.

Juggernaut just confirmed on FB that this Gen learns E faster and they have a flex tune available

I’m 99% certain they do not have access to the necessary parameters for it to work right for the reasons stated above. It took a while for people to understand the 18-23 learning wasn’t working right and that’s where we are with the s650.

I have a contact that has located the appropriate values that need changing in the 24+ hex file and has the tools to make the changes. I dare say he’s the only one or one of a very small group with the knowledge and tools to do this, but he’s not a “tuner” and doesn’t do work for the general public. I’m trying to connect him with a reputable tuner so they can work together to make a fully functional flex tune available for the s650. Otherwise, I believe the same thing will happen that happened on the gen3, that flex tunes will get nearly phased out when everyone realizes they don’t work right.

 

[ChitownStang]

No. Even if it did work, you’d be completely dependent on the owner to do a weird “fill up, drive a little, fill up again” to make sure it doesn’t learn wrong routine every time you switch.

Secondly, it actually gauges the amount of fuel in the tank vs the fill amount to determine if a relearn is reinitiated. If you just top off a couple of gallons it won’t relearn. However, if you add a couple of gallons to a near-empty tank it will initiate a relearn. It’s pretty clever logic actually.



Correct but that sorta defeats the purpose of a flex tune.



I’m 99% certain they do not have access to the necessary parameters for it to work right for the reasons stated above. It took a while for people to understand the 18-23 learning wasn’t working right and that’s where we are with the s650.

I have a contact that has located the appropriate values that need changing in the 24+ hex file and has the tools to make the changes. I dare say he’s the only one or one of a very small group with the knowledge and tools to do this, but he’s not a “tuner” and doesn’t do work for the general public. I’m trying to connect him with a reputable tuner so they can work together to make a fully functional flex tune available for the s650. Otherwise, I believe the same thing will happen that happened on the gen3, that flex tunes will get nearly phased out when everyone realizes they don’t work right.

Thank you for explaining how it works.
I never had any issues with 2 different tuners and thousands of miles on my Mach 1. I work in with computers I daily and the reason I don’t want to always reflash my cars computer is that’s when things usually go wrong. I’d much rather leave it alone and also not worry about how much ethenol is in the e85.
So far, what have been reporting shows more likely we will have more tuners offering flex than previously but to be determined.
Like I said, Juggernaut already does .
How did they figure it out?

 

[engineermike]

I never had any issues with 2 different tuners and thousands of miles on my Mach 1.

If you have an hpt file for these I’d love to see if they’re actually correctly configured. Locked or not doesn’t matter; I’ll get in.

I work in with computers I daily and the reason I don’t want to always reflash my cars computer is that’s when things usually go wrong. I’d much rather leave it alone and also not worry about how much ethenol is in the e85.

While I agree with the sentiment of “you shouldn’t have to reflash to switch fuels”, I’ve reflashed mine literally thousands of times. I’ll pull over on the way to work and reflash sometimes if I’m testing something.

Like I said, Juggernaut already does .
How did they figure it out?

I’m not a betting man but I’d bet *they didn’t*. They just haven’t done enough validation testing to confirm it always works in every situation. Like I said, it took a while for them to figure out there was a problem with the gen3 flex tunes. It took me several full-tank-switches before I found the problem. It’s possible the fuel trims cover the difference for the initial tank but this has its own problems, obviously.

 

[engineermike]

A true OEM-style flex tune also adds a significant amount of fuel to crank and cold-start when it learns ethanol. Those parameters are also missing from the HPT definitions, and they are also defaulted to all 0's in the S650. So, if you get one of these new flex tunes, don't expect the maturing process to work correctly and don't expect cold starting to be very good if at all.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

A true OEM-style flex tune also adds a significant amount of fuel to crank and cold-start when it learns ethanol. Those parameters are also missing from the HPT definitions, and they are also defaulted to all 0's in the S650. So, if you get one of these new flex tunes, don't expect the maturing process to work correctly and don't expect cold starting to be very good if at all.

For flex or for E85?

 

[engineermike]

For flex or for E85?

I’m referring to flex tuning, but as a side note most commercial tuners don’t bother updating the cold crank and start values appropriately for e85 which is why so many e85 tune users complain about poor cold starting.

 

[ChitownStang]

I’m referring to flex tuning, but as a side note most commercial tuners don’t bother updating the cold crank and start values appropriately for e85 which is why so many e85 tune users complain about poor cold starting.

Very interesting info. Now you have me second guessing the flex. Either way I will be waiting for more information and testing to come out.
you seem really good; where’s your tune?? lol

 

[Zig]

No. Even if it did work, you’d be completely dependent on the owner to do a weird “fill up, drive a little, fill up again” to make sure it doesn’t learn wrong routine every time you switch.

Secondly, it actually gauges the amount of fuel in the tank vs the fill amount to determine if a relearn is reinitiated. If you just top off a couple of gallons it won’t relearn. However, if you add a couple of gallons to a near-empty tank it will initiate a relearn. It’s pretty clever logic actually.



Correct but that sorta defeats the purpose of a flex tune.



I’m 99% certain they do not have access to the necessary parameters for it to work right for the reasons stated above. It took a while for people to understand the 18-23 learning wasn’t working right and that’s where we are with the s650.

I have a contact that has located the appropriate values that need changing in the 24+ hex file and has the tools to make the changes. I dare say he’s the only one or one of a very small group with the knowledge and tools to do this, but he’s not a “tuner” and doesn’t do work for the general public. I’m trying to connect him with a reputable tuner so they can work together to make a fully functional flex tune available for the s650. Otherwise, I believe the same thing will happen that happened on the gen3, that flex tunes will get nearly phased out when everyone realizes they don’t work right.

Hex, one of my old edits used to be, change “Terminate batch job (Y/N)” to ‘enter password’.

Are you able to say if for the most part they are doing live edits or just revising a file and overwriting in whole?

 

[engineermike]

you seem really good; where’s your tune?? lol

I couldn’t make money as a tuner. I take too long and not good with customers.

I have been assisting a tuner that I’m hoping we can work out a something to get these background parameters right for flex tunes.

 

[engineermike]

Are you able to say if for the most part they are doing live edits or just revising a file and overwriting in whole?

This isn’t my forte but what I can say is that hpt only gives “us” access to something like 10 or 20% of the parameters that exist in a factory tune. They just aren’t displaying the ones I mentioned above, which turns out are quite necessary for a proper flex tune. A hex guy can find those parameters in the massive pile of 1’s and 0’s and make the changes to the .hpt file, which is then flashed into the car using hpt just like any other tune file. The hpt software is none the wiser; it just doesn’t display the changes because the parameters aren’t defined in the UI.

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